Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Posted first under 'Design', repeated here to not 'lose' anybody:

To state the obvious, wood is pretty much the only material we can predictably grow more of in a broad range of species for a broad range of applications on the hull.

Focussing on wooden working craft under a dedicated category would allow concentrating on the inherent 'sustainability' of the material and the 'lower-carbon' nature of such craft.

WOODENBOAT magazine is in a unique historic position to lead in the re-assertion of wood-based construction-methods in the context of reducing carbon across a range of 'western' working craft.

On the background of extant wooden working craft here and from anywhere around the globe, discussing various opportunities could add to the political legitimacy of the material under progressively growing concerns of 'sustainability (there's a pun in there somewhere).

We are all familiar with recent/current-vintage wooden Lobsterboats, Navy Minesweepers, Whalewatchers, luxury Charterboats etc. More or less aggressive pursuit of further options to use wood as the primary hull-material in the working craft universe should have distinct advantages for designers, builders, over readers and environmentally-minded activists, to would-be operators so far leary of 'plant-matter' in their future.

With WOODENBOAT's reputation and near global availability, this could be a rewarding addition to our discourse, enjoyment, and political relevance of the magazine and this forum. After all, wood has always offered a lot, and might reassert itself again, as other more 'finite' materials go 'stratospheric' costwise and raise concerns about their carbon-footprint.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

It would be a real shame have to mix politics and boats. :rolleyes: We keep them separate and it works well.

Besides, no one who's really involved with a wooden boat could ever offer any kind of rational arguement for the object or the pursuit.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I second that.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Ditto. "Wood" boats evolve. They always have as technology and intent change. We love them in all their incarnations, whether "polluted" with a little epoxy or carbon fiber.

A useful threshold might be: is the hull essentially made of wood?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

You go girl.
I've NO idea what these other guys are worried about. No doubt they'll explain it to me.
I see no problem with advocating for renewable resources in whatever we're doing.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Thanks Tom Robb, that's the spirit. This could really matter.

We might get a 'federal' project here into Gloucester - a working craft in wood for a major 'boat'-owner. Will keep you posted.

In the meantime, I hope folks will add their perspective - positive and negative ones of course - to see this new Forum category idea evolve as a proposal.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

E-mail directly to Carl Cramer. Surely you know him well enough to put the case for a dedicated forum.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

yeah, i'm always amazed at the hypocrisy of people who jump on the green bandwagon
in a fibreglass or aluminium boat, rant rave etc

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I'd have mixed feelings about this, as a wooden boat builder/repairer it may mean more work in the future, but I'm finding that good quality wood is getting harder to source all the time and getting very expensive too and if more boats were being built of wood especially on a commercial scale this might make things even worse. Tony
Ps are PB&F ever going to set up a website where one may browse various plans and perhaps purchase some.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

One of many positive consequences would be the growing respect and protective impulses for local but 'unknown' examples of premium species you'd like to see more quantity of. Our regional (north-east Massachusetts) ESSEX COUNTY GREEN BELT collects properties to remain/return-to less-to-undisturbed status i.e. no development, in a long-term project to preserve open spaces hereabouts. Their acreage alone is rich in premium examples of fine potential timber, which - if sustainably harvested - would feed their operational budget/endowment and would supply a steady trickle to the discerning market-place. That is just one county-wide organization. With 60+% home-ownership in the US, there are a lot of perhaps 'unlikely' and yet accessible sources of such timber - if owners see the value 'in that old tree over there...' and put it on a 'Registry' once too big for the lot or in the way of that addition. This allows locating locally/regionally a broad variety of species for a broad variety of wood-working purposes including traditional boat-building for instance.

I'd likely be feeding on 'dreadful' farm-grown fir marine-ply for my 'habit'...

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

An interesting example of timber sustainability is the guy who has the contract to harvest trees for the US Navy on Indian Island's ammo dump across the bay from Port Townsend, WA.
He uses draft horses to keep from trashing the land, doesn't clear-cut, has been harvesting for years (decades IIRC) and they have more quality timber standing than when they started. His horses even seem to love the work and a year after working an area you can't tell they were there.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I think this is an interesting idea, and I can't fathom any of the objections expressed thus far. Sure, there are "political" overtones, but it's ultimately a very practical issue, a matter of survival for those who own and operate working watercraft, and the coastal communities that depend on them.

WB is focused far too much on "recreational" boating, but in the end even the biggest recreational yacht is, in some sense, a "toy." This is different. It would be especially good if it helps open lines of communication between people who wouldn't ordinarily exchange ideas. The WB community has so much knowledge and skill, and this would help spread all that further, to good effect.

It would be great to see WB do more with this in the magazine -- starting perhaps with a special issue, and then ongoing articles. And they're in the midst of a second design competition relating to recreational powerboats -- why not one for working watercraft instead?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Most working craft are better off being made of steel or aluminum, two metals that will hardly ever be in short supply. The skills to fabricate, maintain and repair in these materials are competitively priced and widely available.

Wood, on the other hand, is expensive, and will continue to become more so. Fastenings are prohibitively expensive. Maintainance is constant and unforgiving of any lapse. Skilled labor is just about non-existent in most areas.

People who make their living with boats are usually a practical bunch not much given to the some of the romanticizing that we embrace here.

Metal boats are stronger and able to take more abuse without holing or failure. In the larger sizes needed they're probably lighter, and certainly thinner skinned. The design aspect is much less restrained in metal than wood, allowing more advantageous layouts and features. One-offs and modifications are easily accomplished.

Just a few thoughts.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

One could engage on the steel vs. wood argument ad infinitum as the working-fleet realities in this port for instance reflect daily use of all construction-types i.e. wood, FRP, steel, alu etc.

My interest is to use wood to its best advantage both functionally and politically/ecological etc.: In our archive there is a number of designs for ballasted sailing mono-hulls of various sizes that were designed -using wood ! - to be let's say 'sinking-resistant' when holed, rolled or otherwise seriously 'insulted'.

The 31' 'Robin Jean' featured in NATIONAL FISHERMAN 11/09 issue has significant built-in 'hard' 'positive buoyancy'. Built by two non-boatbuilders and then worked this year commercially, suggests a range of opportunities inherent in wood, exemplified by this particular venture. On the other hand, every year steel-hulled commercial fishing-craft - fully COAST GUARD Safety-Examined - go down, often with loss of life...

Ledger's counsel is textbook-orthodox on both levels - re wood and re metal - and thus not in keeping with realities both expressed initially on this thread but also practiceable by design and appropriate construction. The point is that by appropriate use of material's properties certain advantages are within reach otherwise deemed 'inconceivable'.

Well, let's 'conceive' and practice in commercial (and of course pleasure-) applications that approach in sizes say up to 200' lean feet, likely using modern construction techniques - but not categorically so - and expand reliably the 'known' envelope of de facto reflexive reference marks. Using wood's fortuitous property of self-seeding and growing, and typically ample floatation by (nature's) design, we are off to a good start in pursuing the reemergence of using wood in a range of commercial applications, including whalewatchers, research-craft, fishing-craft, motor-sailing traders etc.

We can always peek at the periodicals of the Metal Boat Society 'on the side'...

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

:rolleyes:

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

While I appreciate your rational points on the issue in question, I absolutely do not agree with the statement quoted. You should listen to some of the many fine songs and stories created by fishing folk around the world..romanticism as a human capacity is not limited to the upper classes and those who own yachts!

There are many places around the globe where working classes still use wooden boats as a good percentage of craft in the harbor. Even our illustrious forum member and designer, Mr. Welsford did a design specific to meet the purposes of the 'working class' in their place and time of need.

Carry on.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

We go out in boats under sail! No matter how romantic they might feel, fishermen aren't going to go there. Sing a song, tell a story, sure, then turn the key, fire it up and head home.:D

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

in Italy the only real wooden working boat I'm aware of is the Venetian gondola, through which tourists from all aver the world are aggressively milked; I guess one gondola may return 1500-2000 EUR/day. Frankly I become very suspicious when I'm told of romanticism & business

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

WOODENBOAT did a serious write-up on the US NAVY 'Avenger'-class of 14 oceangoing minesweepers/minehunters MHS built in wood by two yards between '83 and '93 - hardly 45 years ago...
The Navy has also build 12 copies ('Osprey'-class) of Italian 'Lerici' models between '88 and '97 in foam-core GRP-monocoque construction. Two construction-methods are thus in current use, including the Persian Gulf.

Under future fisheries-regulation here in the North-East - and already possible elsewhere on this continent - fishing under motor-sailing operation is possible and is being considered. Senior fishers on both coasts have expressed interest in adding their operation to the 'least-carbon' column by considering these options seriously; anybody would, if faced with $5/gal on the horizon. These guys are hard-core entrepreneurs - not 'romantics' with stuffed parrots bolted to their shoulders. And wood's inherent sustainability will feature prominently in the arsenal of industry regulation-political rhetoric.

The staggering consequences of $5/gal - easy enough to arrive at post-Recession and with a weak Dollar (!) - have not remotely sunk in deep enough for many to seriously contextualize 'wood' for instance and 'motor-sailing' commercially in that scenario. 'Conventional' reflexes will be seen in certain applications as 'out of sync.' with emerging hard realities. What would be the alternatives ??

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Maybe I didn't understand the sense of this discussion properly, in the case I apologize. But if we are talking of mass production of wooden working boats (I mean not few dozens of boats), I guess the main problem is the possibility to have large quantity of high graded wood.

In Structural Design in Wood, speaking of juvenile wood, the authors say "Genetically improved trees grown on intensively managed tree farms grow fairly rapidly; they can be harvested earlier and therefor have a higher percentage of juvenile wood [...] Today most trees grown on trees farms are used by paper industry [...] in the future however more of such trees will undoubtedly be used for construction lumber. When this happens, the code-writing committees [...] will have to account for the increased percentage of juvenile wood in the lumber"

If I understand correctly, the sense of this speech is that the more we will use wood in building industry, the more we will face the fact of having to use lower and lower graded wood. As simple amateur woodworker I have personally experimented this: our first grade of today corresponds to the second grade of the 70's.

In building industry the use of low graded wood is possible, but in boatbuilding?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/y...ME7/img260.jpg
we built 2 , 70ft iroko on oak trawlers for scottish owners , a lot of whom prefer wood for the sound & motion at sea, let alone the light show & dry ice, but a wooden trawler doesnt appear to be so popular today, tho i'd build one if needed,i was asked so i priced a new 30 metre one this year , 1 million euros, without aluminium shelterdeck, which those had,

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Here is a 'pregnant' question for Peter Radclyffe:
70-feet by what ? How about displacement figures in pounds ?

The hull of that length could weigh 30-35.000 lbs empty in the PB&F universe, to carry perhaps another 30k in fish, all in the context of anticipating high fuel-costs such as (in US references!) $5/gal.

Or it could weigh 150.000 chunky/'burdensomesome' pounds.

Length as the sole regulatory reference mark is pernicious indeed. The two 70-footers referred to here obviously have very different assumptions and first&operational cost-structures as baseline with massive repercussions as commercial propositions.

We've come to prefer referring to (fishing-) commercially-relevant numbers. Conceptually familiar from diesel-engine specs, 'our' 70-footer would carry the following designation: 30K220/70D as in 30.000lbs capacity, powered by 220HP, on 70-feet length, in a displacement-speed hull-geometry (likely 11kts max.). (We've first put this in print elsewhere a good while back. See also article on a 2K90/30P in NATIONAL FISHERMAN 11/09)

Thus we're off to our first exchange on fundamentals of discussing commercial wooden hulls. None of this, of course, does remotely begin to cover issues such as sustainable sourcing of wood, 'sinking-resistance' loaded, relative energy-efficiency per given application.

Hence the proposal to concentrate the growing collected wisdom in its own Forum Category.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

The fishing industry is about to go into a poorly concieved regulatory scheme called "catch shares" which will destroy the coastal fishing community.The move will eliminate most of the small scale boats and thus the need for anything other than factory ships.Economically,trying to sell anything to this particular group is impossible.Boats are a dime a dozen.After living with dramatic cuts in effort for the past ten years nobody has any money for anything,and its only going to get worse!I saw you at the protest last friday at NMFS office you should heard of how everyone will toast in about one year.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Timfish
Did you read the Hand-out of ours ?

And you are rolling over 'dead' ?

We offered much of this technical approach nationally in NATIONAL FISHERMAN Sept. '04. What did you think of this then ?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

those boats are about 80 tons, i would prefer to build something simliar with a rig for economy, why use diesel when the winds are right, timber is dear here but i thought you had loads of timber in the n west & canada, timber from russia, i'd love to build wooden commercial ships, but i'm not dreaming, it doesnt appear to be popular

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

As much as I like wood, and interested though I was in those big wooden minesweepers, it's hard to imagine vessels of that size being built in wood in the U.S. today, or in the near future. And remember, at the time (45 years ago) those vessels were built because our government and other governments wanted them, wanted wood for specific and unique reasons related to the vessels missions, and were willing to pay all of the costs involved..


Dave,

You peaked my interest on the minesweepers since I did not know any of the yards in this country were building wood minesweepers 45 years ago in the 1960's at least not for our navy. Which yard was this and do you recall what class they were such as MSC, MSB, MSO or ? Sounds like these may have been a foreign contract nontheless I would be interested in any details.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

if i recall correctly the pacific grace was built well & fairly cheaply, a great boat

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

do they target bilges http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

80 tons - near enough. And with that, a lot of wood: for pleasure-craft or working-craft ? Ballast or no ?

Good thing that we don't have to consult with Messrs. Wright et al on the next hull due next year. When two non boat-builders can do Robin Jean and head offshore to fish, what might that mean to Mr. Wright about the progressively larger types for the fleet ?

As stated in the initial post beginning this thread, there is a definite low-carbon future in progressively larger wooden craft, with the ambition always aiming at 'Least-Carbon' hull- and power-geometries and of course operational principles.

The (dark) gravitas of the consultancy of Ledger & Wright may serve somebody somewhere...??

The opportunities raised here - added to by rbgarr's reference just a while ago - will be pursued with gusto and drive, as much fun and knowledge is to be gained as to the actual limits of 'Least Carbon' in commercial use.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

So much for the collective wisdom of the Forum. :rolleyes:

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

[quote]
Timfish
Did you read the Hand-out of ours ?
NO I din't need to I knew what it was going to say already.:rolleyes:
And you are rolling over 'dead' ?
NO Again.:mad:I CONTINUE TO FIGHT THE DESTRUCTION OF OUR NATIONS WATERFRONT .You might want to bring your vindictive,overbearing ,statements to the bilge.
We offered much of this technical approach nationally in NATIONAL FISHERMAN Sept. '04. What did you think of this then ?
I think that wooden working craft are represented well enough on this forum,and a Dedicated Category is not needed.:cool:

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Dave Wright,
If 31' Robin Jean is a "Handyman Special", is the 40' or 50' equivalent therefore unviable as a commercial proposition both for commercial and pleasure applications ? Would a 70-footer for 30k lbs capacity be any different ? Instead of the dubious "tinkerers" "Handyman Special" labels, you might want to consider the reality of the relative ease of assembly for the schedule and cost-structure operating a building yard doing these.

Its good to read your seeming appreciation for Phil Bolger's and for the last 14 years our work. But it would be more productive for this Thread's purpose to contextualize Phil Bolger's near life-long quest to get the obstacles out of boat-building by enabling regular folks to get the job done, on the background of 'sustainability'-challenges for commercial users and commercial builders alike. Had you reflected on the many 'Chapters' of our efforts on the subject in M.A.I.B. as the final rigorous expression of Phil's/our reasoning, you'd be unlikely to favor the narrowest of all possible conclusions.

For both Ledger&Wright - nodding sagedly at each other - to pronounce both efficient construction and then efficient use of these type craft under 21th century challenges as de facto 'unrealistic' is surprisingly (and refreshingly) self-defining as 'retro'. Even more so in this WOODENBOAT Forum in late 2009.
...unless it is only about premium lumber out of virgin stands or royal preserves, perfect grown knees, trunnel fasteners and clouds of linseed oil and varnish vapors. Not that there is anything wrong with that on its own and thus inherently limited terms...

Realism would suggest disciplined focus on the extraordinarily timely characteristics of both the material of wood and the institution of this globe-spanning magazine (and this forum) as one promising opportunity to answer these economic and ecological challenges. Go back and examine in particular the 70-footer (60.000lbs max displ.) in all its conceptual details - there sure is enough verbiage of ours to elucidate our thinking - and then tell me what is 'unrealistic' about it ? Then apply the same matrix of reasoning to a hull with twice the displacement - and repeat again !!

Phil's drive towards simplification - often disguising sophisticated underlying concepts - took decades to arrive at this our most rigorous definition (the 70-footer for instance). Try to improve it, friends !

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

You should find a friend and build one of your boats on spec. If it doesn't sell, you can always go fishing with it. There's no downside that I can see.

Besides, around here, nothing goes over better than a good build thread, except scrabble, or Australian politics...or the pub, or a good arguement about creationism, guns or abortion. Come to think of it, there are a lot easier ways to start a thread than to actually build a boat. But the building threads are the Gold Standard, a virtually unassailable position from which you can push any agenda with absolute impunity.

JL@F

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

timfish,
I can send you another copy.

For over seven years (1900 pro bono hrs), here in Gloucester, and before NEFMC, and NMFS - a little with Kurkul and more with Mantsaris (her #2) -, and C.L.F. we formulated our angle on indeed protecting the working waterfront - both for Fishers and advanced boat-building, since both need each other likely forever; of course not in Ledger&Wright's perspective...

We eventually attracted signatures of 40+Fishers across all fisheries and tribes, a bunch of key shoreside stakeholders, our Mayor's endorsement, Conservation Law Foundation's endorsement, coverage in NATIONAL FISHERMAN (good), COMMERCIAL FISHERIES NEWS (ho-hum since conceptually incomplete ), B.C.'s FISHERMAN LIFE, fortunately saw 'Robin Jean' built and worked, with more local decision-makers hereabouts at long last discussing the inter-connectness of sustainable resource with sustainable fleet with sustainable working ports; both CLF's and the mayor's letter are very clear on that. If matters progress as planned, we'll see built another (wooden) working craft here in Gloucester this coming Spring.

The reason I asked you about 'rolling over' was that too many folks in the fleet here in the North-East are seeing themselves as "deadwood" as in 'deadman-walking' before next year's regulation deadline. The Hand-Out was intended to offer serious 'meat' against Pew/EDF 'High-Carbon'-based ocean privatization schemes. And it still does. Who wants to claim to be as 'green' as it gets and be finding themselves pushing a dirty 'high-carbon' regulatory nightmare against the fleet, its ports, and of course the resource.

The point about our efforts has been to 'out-green' the predatory mono-culturally-dependent Pew/EDF(Environmental Defense Fund) who may know how to spell ecosystem-management, but do not see the urgent need to support the greenest-conceivable fleet-structure as a matter of conceptual coherence. They have never had a conference, position-paper, R&D-support issued for a 'Least-Carbon' fleet - such as one based on eminently renewable wood as the primary structural material.

timfish, you may want to ask your local/regional fishing chiefs why they have not pushed hard against high-carbon regs, and harder for prototypes to fund the 'greenest' vessel-types to allow the industry to live with $5/gal of diesel while adhering to scientifically assured resource-sustaining dictates. (I reckon they've got conselled by Ledger&Wright's collected wisdom on this matter). Everybody got their PRIUS hybrid-on-land tax-benefit. Has one ever been on offer for one for your commercial Low-Fuelburn needs on-the-water ??

Talk to me in private as well. We are pulling on the same rope.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Re Ledger's latest.
To repeat, it's been done and 'Robin Jean' was working this year.
Check this Forum under various related headings around her and the article about the project in the hard-core industry-friendly NATIONAL FISHERMAN issue of Nov.'09. Their coverage might qualify as "virtually unassailable"...

More coverage somewhere, incl. WOODENBOAT this time, when more projects mature.

The issue of a Wooden Working Craft Category in this Forum remains on the table.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

How/what are they catching?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Have you contacted the Forum owners yet to see if it's an idea they welcome?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I want my own category too, Dave.:rolleyes:

I once built a fishing boat and worked it. There were no magazine articles back then, but I remember National Fisherman. Remember Perce Sane? Is he still around?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Mr. Ledger: When were there no magazine articles ? Phil had pieces in MAINE COAST FISHERMAN in the 50s before it became N.F. and in THE RUDDER March '48 (i.e. he got published for 61 years).

Mr Garr: I assumed that collecting lot's of views will have more interest to 'The Powers That Be', as much useful language gets generated on both sides that will help consolidate Editors perspectives and likely reflects notions 'out there' beyond the Forum. I'd give quite a bit more time for perspectives to mature and opinions to be formulated either way. Of course, my opinion is as 'mature' as it gets...

P.S. They used a Federal Permit for Rod&Reel, tub-trawling (via electric hauler), and whatever they know how to do. From the Outer Harbor to 20nm offshore they pursued their business.