Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

I suspect that one of the big differences in view point between me and many of the participants on this thread is that I have only an academic interest in the boats of the North American coastal fisheries, and see them as relatively unimportant on a world scale whereas those who live in the area will understandably be concerned to see their own people and economy being badly affected by all sorts of factors . I figure that the problems that they see as they look out from the end of a wharf near their house are in fact a microcosm of whats happening worldwide. The solutions are likely to be very similar in broad terms, but the boats may be very different.
Its the boats that I'm interested in, and the whole skills and supply chain that creates and supports them, world wide, and if its wooden boats then I see the opportunities as smaller craft, just doing more of what is not working is not an option, we need new approaches and new ideas. Thats what I am hoping for from a discussion such as this.

Oversize plywood? Why use your regional middlemen, they are just there to make a buck and you may as well have that buck yourself.
If you want some, just go to Wayang or someone similar in Indonesia or Malasia and ask, tell them the spec, send them the money and a month later you'll have a containerload. No problem. Much of the Malasian stuff by the way comes from plantation or at least managed forestries, if you dont like that go to Australia, South Africa, Chile or New Zealand, any of those places can supply.

John Welsford

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

by the by notice the artful chain saw job on this bristol bay boat. its the result of the last length regulation that was imposed. http://www.dockstreetbrokers.com/upl.../BB9-014-2.jpg

there are hundreds of these cause the folks who owned them could not afford to just go out and buy a brand spanking new boat. Some where chainsawed off just in front of the house in the worst case, this one lust had a little nose job.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

My goodness, how that woman can squabble!
Here's a repost of what I already said over on that other thread in case any of you think I'm somehow in league with her--'cause I'm not!

Don't enlist me to do your dirty work! Those "kids", as you've pretentiously called them, had some legitimate questions that you mostly shrugged off or evaded. There's an awful lot of knowledge on this forum, both broad and deep, that you really shouldn't just airily dismiss. Even though I've already built 53 boats (and counting) myself, I still learn something new here pretty much every week.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Ehrr, what's the aim of the regulation for describing shorter boats :confused:

That is one hideous boat btw.

Here is a typical design commonly used in NL

http://kotterfotos.punt.nl/upload/tx_94.jpg

Them boats need to be BOMB proof to survive the use and abuse they see. Not sure how butt blocks will salvage that. Especially since more is not necessarily better and they cause a stringe "hickup" in the distribution of forces. Would be interested to learn more about the strength of butt(block)joints versus scarf joints.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

John Welsford,
the underlying assumption in our approach is domestically grown. Here in the US it would be hard to emphasize the 'sustainability' of wood and then add half-around-the-globe transportation carbon footprint. It is indeed about the whole chain from seed and sapling to successful - as in broad-scope sustainable - commercial venture, building and operating these craft. Since major Eco NGOs are sitting at the political table, this really matters.

On the other hand, from Australia and New Zealand it may indeed be relatively agreeable to access these sources you mention.

Summer of 2008 tax-free Diesel here in Massachusetts, USA was over 4.50/gal., taxed Diesel at the highway $4.99. The Commercial Fishing Fleet was built for about $.60 -1.20/gal ! We are currently nearing $3/gal in the middle of a severe Recession. At $5/gal - or your local equivalent - shipping that wood from Asia will likely become too expensive - quite apart from the aforementioned overall carbon-footprint concerns. Incidentally, importing fish from afar won't be that viable anymore either...

What conceptually unites all geographic differences are the elements of increasing portable/liquid energy-cost, serious environmental concerns, sustainable resource-management from wood over fish to whatever, to the re-emergence in political and economic relevance of renewable/sustainably-grown and delivered wood as a structural material for a good range of commercial craft for just about all latitudes.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

2MT, let's see if I can address your concerns without causing insult to you. I'd appreciate it if you would do the same.

1.) I disagree that it is only "net boats" that are getting wider. I believe that I listed a few examples. I also have a rather extensive collection of "cut sheets" (published drawings and descriptions) of small fishing boats, ranging from 15 feet up to around 75 feet, from around the world, covering the past twenty-five years that I use for reference in my design work. These include west coast boats. I assure you that North American fishing boats of almost all types have steadily gotten "fatter" and with higher installed horsepower over this time period. Some types more than others, and certainly with some exceptions, but the trend is pretty clear.

2.) I am relatively familiar with west coast fishing vessels through contact with professional colleagues and continuous reading of trade and professional magazines and technical papers. However, your "front-lines" experience is certainly valid and, in some cases, superior to my knowledge.

3.) I know what the various types of west coast fishing boats look like, but thank you for the illustrations.

4.) Please note that I and, as I understand her words here, Suzanne are not trying to "ram a new regulation down (your) throats... (and) forcing (you) out of business." We are advocating changing the existing regulations to eliminate the classing of boats by length - thereby eliminating the need to lop the nose off boats as shown in your picture above - and to class them by displacement or tonnage so that the designers, builders, and fishermen can be freed to explore hull forms that maximize propulsive efficiency.

5.) No, I do not believe that all fishing boats are fuel hogs (though a large number of them built in the past twenty years certainly are), nor do I believe that all fishermen are clueless. In fact, most fishermen I know are pretty smart, regardless of their level of formal education.

6.) Granted, I am a college ejamacated naval architect. But before that I was a professional seaman, and before that I was a commercial fisherman on scallop draggers and lobster boats. My father was a merchant seaman, my grandfather was a dory fisherman, my great-grandfather was a fishing schooner owner and captain, and there have been professional fishermen and seamen on both sides of my family for at least six generations. I have a bit of practical background to keep my education in perspective.

So, are we good now? Can we discuss the issues of fishing boat economies and hull forms like reasonable adults now, without slinging mud? Your hands-on experience would be welcome if you don't become confrontational about it. This really isn't an "us versus them" conversation, it's a "what do you see as the main problem and how would you fix it" type of discussion. Please participate - I'd like to hear what a fourth-generation professional fisherman has to say on the subject.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

McMullen's contribution speaks for itself.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

No she has been attempting to create an unfair advantage for the very people you speak about, generations of fishermen using public funds to do so. She has also lobbyed on her own behalf for special fishing permits in closed areas which also puts many of the same at an unfair advantage using public officals to do so at the NMFS. She is also lobbying and advocating building hulls that differ from well established standards that are representitive of your own profession, and quite demanding about it too. Where is the common ground with anyone? Show me one post.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Hear, hear Mr. mmd.

In this 'America's oldest Seaport' (1623) we/I would have no access to commercial yards, -marinas, fishers' hang-outs if our 'Termites' claims of gratuitous confrontation and alienation were indeed habitually practiced.

Instead I appreciate for instance our local Coast Guard Station Commander reading the 'safety-language' drawn into the design/studies as familiar shared concerns - which may account for his speaking at Phil's Memorial Event in support of our efforts.

I very much second mmd's notion that this is a discussion in favor of the physical, economic, and ecological sustainability of the 'small fisherman'; corporations will never been as nimble to respond with alacrity to the fluctuations in weather, markets, resource-profile, and scientifically-imposed catch-limits.

As stated elsewhere, under $5/gal fuel cost (or equivalent) the future of at least coastal - < 200nm - commercial fishing lies in
- shortest steaming distances to fertile fishing grounds,
- on vessels that are sustainable at that energy-cost,
- supported by a myriad of small and medium coastal working waterfront communities,
- going after the scientifically-defined sustainable species and quantity of resource.

All that favors
- 'mom&pop' sized fishing ventures as actually economical most sustainable since most nimble to roll with the punches;
- port-communities' working waterfronts;
- the reexamination of wood as the oldest and still sole renewable structural material to build 'sustainable' inshore/offshore capable boats of.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Erster's fight with 'giants' continues by screaming at the wind-generator's pylon base.

A good part of New England's Commercial Fisheries' current suffering has a lot to do with folks like Erster's perspective, who, if in leading positions, never succeed at structuring the political/regulatory debate in their favor. Apart from impolitic fits, they refuse to 'out-green' the world's largest ENGOs by demonstrating opportunities via just a handful of truly sustainable prototypes in order to assert true leadership/stewartship in matters of resource-sustainability and thus sustainability of these family-ventures and their communities.

Resource and Fishing-Industry Sustainability are 'Siamese Twins' (for want of a better analogy).
Sustainability has three legs - the 'Tripod of Sustainability' (you read it here first!):
1. - sustainable resource-management;
2. - sustainable fleet-characteristic and thus operational profile;
3. - sustainable shoreside working waterfront infrastructure in fishers' communities.
And at the base of any and all fishing ventures is the vessel. In the fisher's toolbox it is the largest piece of gear. The more sustainable in every aspect the more sustainable the venture's aspirations of success. Countering the pernicious regulatory legacy of length=size is just the start.

Apparently not so for Erster et al. Over several weeks now he insists on turning every 'golden' opportunity into a 'Brown-Field' of lead-splatters, self-inflicted deep burns, and ruined respiration, allthewhile blaming someone else. No wonder he is perpetually unhappy... 'Erster the Alchemist' succeeds in turning 'gold' into 'lead'.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Suzanne, although Erster (Mike) is quite vocal in his disagreements with issues and, occasionally, people, he is also an accomplished boatbuilder with quite a vast knowledge of the subtleties of vessel types in his area. He is a resource to be cultivated. I would like to politely suggest that you refrain from teasing the caged lion when he roars, and try to find a common ground from which to correspond. Also, referring to thread participants in derogatory diminutive terms such as "termites" is not conducive to moving the dialogue along - could you refrain, please?

Erster, may I politely suggest that, having made your opinion of Suzanne and her present activities clearly known to us, you let that dog lie and focus on the issue presented of how to develop a sustainable, efficient, wooden commercial fishing fleet? Your knowledge of small working craft and plywood construction would be very beneficial to the discussion.

Folks, this could be a good Forum topic if we stop the personality conflicts and concentrate on the subject. We're not all going to agree (for instance, I have grave reservations about big plywood fishing boats) but if we all stay on track and discuss fishing vessel efficiency, form, materials and economics, this subject will have legs and considerable interest. Quite honestly, this is the most professionally stimulating thread here for me in the past several years. Please leave the mud-slinging aside and let's talk about boats...

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Why should we care about the fate of Commercial Fishing in this Wooden Boat Forum ?

Because without a viable working waterfront, affordable repair - if not building - services disappear, along with DIY repair yards and storage opportunities. And that reduces the WoodenBoat universe to even fewer, older, richer folks - and that is not really even in those good folks' interest.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Lordy, lordy, I am so reluctant to jump into this hornets nest, but I just can't help my fool self.

So, a few observations first:

Here we have a forumite (S@PB&F) advocating for a new forum category. As I understand it (subject to correction), the purpose of this new forum category is twofold:

1. To serve as a meeting place for those wishing to rewrite Federal regulations governing commercial fishing boat design.

2. To serve as a marketing arm for the type of boat construction and design currently being offered by the commercial venture represented by S@PB&F.


Seems to me (subject to correction) that S@PD&F is attempting to enlist the influence of WB Magazine, the WB Forum, and the weight of its membership in support of her private commercial venture.

Now, a few questions:

1. Why are we even discussing this, given the rules governing this forum?

2. Why has this debate persisted for hundreds of posts in two duplicate threads?

3. Given the harsh tone and unremitting nastiness of the principle advocate, why is anyone still talking to her?

There, now I've stepped in it.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Bingo Terry LL!

MMD, this is where the working watermen stand with eco warriors. They have put what has been generations of hard working people out of work, on the hill in the name of saving them. Just this past couple of weeks off of New Jersey, a group of fellows lost their lives in some ugly weather fishing up that way because of the quotas placed upon them by the lobbying efforts of simular groups. By the time the fisheries got south, the established and deminishing quotas have been caught This left many of the watermen empty come the christmas and winter season.

Forced regulation to save the red snapper by the same do gooders also have put even the charter boat guys out of fall and winter income with the closures right now.

Now unfair advantage is once again rearing its head. No one can compete against the house so to speak. We also are witnessing the same in the healthcare debate. This product being proposed protects no blue color worker in 2009. Thats all that I am saying and have not used any childish insults to do so. Later.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

I agree with the referee mmd.

A re-read of the sister-Threads will diagnose the origins and subsequent genesis of this sub-culture of communication, limited to actually just a few.

Any of my lengthy submissions - they can get a bit much for me as well.... - is penned under the premise of broadening the substantive basis for discourse; in itself an act of 'reaching out'. Of course, between my non-native speaker's lack of all linguistic sensibilities and zero credits from the College of Diplomacy, there most likely is room for improvement, provided there are favorable environmental conditions...

Of course, some 'jousting' can be fun. But the initial proposal is too serious to be buried under debris.

Thus I repeat my agreement with mmd. This project of building this Thread here could indeed be a lot of fun as well, in a constructive way, that is.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

In my rush to agree with mmd, I overlooked mmd's note "this is the most professionally stimulating thread here for me in the past several years."
As 'the Mother of the Thread' I feel both belly-rubbed and apologetic for this oversight.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

A question: What is the difference between cold-molded/plywood commercial whalewatching/Party boats, USN mine-sweepers built that way, charter mega-yachts working in warm and cold climes? This broad spectrum of users and uses implies a reasonable degree of plausibility of this one construction-approach.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Suzanne, my initial reaction to the question above is to note that all of your examples save the minesweepers do not stream and recover hardware offboard, so they do not suffer the scrapes and knocks that a professional fishing boat does. They also, again with the exception of the minesweepers, do not work in ice.

In response to Erster's reference to quotas, which is a very germane and hotly-debated topic, I'm going to start a thread about this issue in Misc. Boat Related. Please drop by with your comments and opinions, but please keep it civil, OK?

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

I would be interested in what you view as being uncivil in my replies. But as far as these multiple threads and this topic goes, after watching the initial volley and exchanges and getting a handle on what the underlying issues were in the topic, which also is well supported, as Terry stated and I spoke about last night, the self interests an self promoting was an issue that has been frowned upon for as long as I have participated. If you add to the fact that civility was indeed adhered to, all be it subjective and up to interpretation in these sections, and this was surely exempt and allowed to take place at an alarming rate.

In an effort to also defend my own boat threads hot exchanges have taken place and I personally have paid the price. ;) A lot of this is the very reason I wade through little in either of the sections with the repeated episodes, many by folks that have tens of thousands of posts too.;) So for now I think I will bow out of this issue and related ones as well. and stick to finishing up my own project once again.

In almost a month now since multiple threads have been posted. If an unsatifactory result to the poster has resulted, I think that maybe some new forum software should be in order and should be considered.;):)

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Once considering 'wear-surfaces' that are replaceable, a number of options open up in lamination-schedule, choices of 'sacrificables', their attachment, associated hydrodynamics, relative durability, etc. Experimentation in the head and then on the boat will show which one works best where. But with a reasonably homogeneous seamless structural matrix with predictable hard-points and material characteristics there are a lot of options.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

I agree with Erster's shift in priorities. Finish that project and share the results with all of us if and when. Just take it easy on the self-promotional tenor of posting photos and drawings...

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

For reference MMD, This is the most recent happenings, follow the money as the story goes. While watermen were working the waters, do gooders were out to put them on the hard with mispresentations of the facts.

http://fryingpantower.com/

Read up also on CCA and their lobbying efforts and what they have directly done to destroy the snapper guys and their charter boats, not just the commercial guys. I have not misrepresented a thing in this intent to point out that no one in this topic is protecting and working towards protecting any working watermen, the generations of guys that you speak about.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Yeah, erster! Keep that self-promotion to a minimum unless, of course, you are proposing an entire new forum category to highlight your own design firm's involvement in a particular topic.

Susanne, if you'd done a little research into the history of some of these individuals you're determined to fight with, I think you'd have found out that erster has long been a staunch defender of using economical plywood for boat building. Between the two of us, I'm sure we've built well over two dozen plywood boats in a whole range of sizes. You seem to be doing your best to try to make enemies where instead you might have had allies.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

That was not only non-constructive, but utterly pointless.

E

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Are you talkin' to me ? Are you talkin to me...?
How's that?

Time to check on my apple-crumbs-cake in the oven...

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Erster, I wasn't singling out any person in particular with my request to play nice, just issueing a blanket plea. This topic and the subject of fishing quotas can occasionally get a bit instense and I just want to play the schoolyard monitor for a moment.

Susanne, I have been spelling your name incorrectly; I apologise and will try to be more accurate in future. On another point you bring up, I have become resigned to the fact that descriptions and photos of pro boatbuilding projects are welcome on the WBF, but the same from deisgners is not so welcome. Cést la vie... I just enjoy the info and pics and move along.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

mmd, I appreciate your care with my name.

Some might argue that designers' websites would show such photos/plans. But how to get the eyes during such discussions to migrate there is the problem. Within the YAHOO group on Bolger, it is usually someone from within the discussion that tends to point out resources, such as their own sites or group-resources with said info, and corrects misunderstandings etc. - just about always in reasonably civil tone. Without a website to our name - just bought URL names - this won't work for a while here. But the basic assumption about the seperate Forum on this subject is that those most interested will do their own on-site research and thus eventually go off-site as well to stumble across 'professional designers' websites. Such routines are at many peoples'
finger-tips already. Seems to work out fine. Friendly clients/aficionados can be the best ambassadors.

I'll live to WBF's expectations just fine. And Forum mores may adapt over time if an objective need emerges, such as a dedicated archive on projects in design and actual execution. The listings on designs elsewhere in WB online shows one way.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Susanne , what are your scantlings for a 70 footer

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

To follow up on MMD’s foam core wood/GRP composite:

In the wacky world of windsurfing (where I spend perhaps a little too much time) normal production boards, made of foam core and GRP tended to snap like matches. The boards that were custom made at small shops were a lot better though.
From the year 2000 onwards factory surf board makers started using wood again for their top range products. Not sure how those wood stands up against the abuse, as I gave up windsurfing some years ago. Those board builders have quite a bit of knowledge. Might be worth checking their products, for instance at http://www.jp-australia.com


Here is a picture taken at a place where I used to surf (not me in the picture, just to illustrate the abuse).

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Z3AqJ3UrY7...s400/bjorn.jpg

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Agreed MMD, I would however suggest that folks take a look at the principle in this thread. the principle is not only active here but on the ground. part of the problem i have is that yes the proponents of new regulations are trying to shove it down our throats and are actively working at it on several levels. that is exactly why the venom and heat of this subject. it is blatant promotion of self interest and disregards best practice and any kind of experiance. this is being foisted off on folks who cannot endure more regulations that require new boats. in fact as many have noted experiance seems to be the last thing the principle wants to deal with.

a further note one of the representatives of this set of ideas was speaking at a fisheries meeting in port orford and got run out of the hall by the fishermen.

for those of you who dont know; Port orford has a boat weight and size limit because the boats must be lifted out every evening and lifted in every morning. port orford fishermen have imposed limits and protected areas on them selves and had them written into law. they actively chase out those who do not comply and report off shore fishing interests that stray into the protected zones. it is the only actual success story in fisheries management that i can relate. folks might want to think about the principals proposals in light of that. obviously no research was done and every shred of experiance was ignored in the persuite of an agenda.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

So, 2MeterTroll, what regulation is being pushed here ?

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

And, 2MeterTroll, with your commercial fishing background, why can't we admire your working craft in a picture or drawing ?

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Radclyffe,
I am afraid that beyond what we've written in print elsewhere, what I've posted here and in the sister-Thread, there is not much more than what I can do. Formally I can not - and commercially I would not - lay out the long list of particulars of a design-proposal. Furthermore, picture Erster-Oyster, Wright, Sage Ledger, 2Meter Troll et al nipping at it before the ink is dry...

Could anybody please direct me to any one of these folk's design archive ?

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Re McMullen's latest:

If you personally want to reference these good folks as potential "allies" to the focus of this Thread - or yourself perhaps - , that is your prerogative. (Between you and I, I do like this attempt at sarcasm myself...)

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

I don't have a dog in this fight as I can see both sides to some extent. Where I grew up on the coast of NC, wooden shrimp boats are still common and there are several smaller wooden commercial fishing boats still in use. So I think that wood at least in some respects is still a viable material for production of commercial boats and I would like to see it's use expanded, mainly because it's a local or at least national renewable material. I don't have a problem with another sub-forum per se as long as it doesn't become a platform for anybody to self-promote. Others have suggested that the existing forums could serve the same purpose, that would be fine as well. What I really object to is the amount of vitriol flowing throughout this topic. The fate of the free world is not being decided here. If you don't want a new sub-forum just say so, there's no need to assign sinister motives to other people. I see that WB is including a new section on plans and kits, perhaps that could be added as a sub-forum to give everybody equal access to the wooden boat community.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

I am, predictably perhaps, with Longbow.

Any re-reading of either sister-Thread will allow tracking the origins and vector of unconstructive/corrosive 'contributions'; that re-reading might be quite a chore, were it not for the rich feasting on ironies and smoking holes in various sets of feet.

On 'self-promotion' - beyond offering Thread-supporting short and lengthy thoughts - the extant Thread record also stands on its own. No patent-potions hawked. Only ideas submitted for considerations.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Here is more 'meat' on the question why (sustainable) wooden working craft matter as a distinct subject-matter. The context here is (again) the example of commercial fisheries. In the context on another Thread on Design the following was formulated and posted from this address (edited mildly and 'bolded' for easier tracking by the weary eye):

"It is indeed pretty much about politics in science, regulation, industry-self-representation and -governance. Defining 'sustainability' of the resource, of the industry, of affected communities and related industries is 'political' in one of its most potent forms. Whose voice gets heard, with what weight implicitly and explicitly assigned to it, has a lot to do with relative legitimacy in comparison to others vying for that 'relevance'. Voters in greater Vancouver or Boston have their diverse impressions of relative standing in the discussion, express their preference in memberships, donations, and just plain votes.

Ergo, in the governance of a natural self-reproducing resource, it matters politically how plausibly 'green'/sustainable any given party's position is perceived to be in the context of proven and predicted economic returns/stability on the background on presumably agreed-upon scientific and econometric proceedings and thus relative reliability of hard data as a foundation for public political choices and hard decisions; most scientist live or die by the relevance of their data, with econometricians (word?) eager to be as far away from the mushy mess of 'Economics' as they can be in their quest towards 'hard numbers=certainty' and still deal with 'economic' realities/fictions(?). Both insist they offer hard realities with increasing plausibility to their reflexive claims as time goes by and their modeling matures.

And decision-makers in regulatory agencies in Ottawa (Wash.D.C.) or in regional executive and legislative branches in Victoria (Boston) have pretty much only these 'fig-leaves' at hand with which to justify decisions quantitatively and politically. Your respective claims/proposals are either 'quantifiably' more sustainable or they are less so. To rear-guard against the 'wild-card' of 'irrational politics' 'looking more sustainable/green' than the other party will matter as well.

Our (PB&F) working assumption has been that an industry, that by a limited number of prototypes and associated body of public data can announce itself as aiming for low-to-least carbon solutions, will likely have a better public image - and thus relative political power - than one that insists that it is not the boats, just the ham-fisted regs by evil overlord bureaucrats.

With this White House and Congress at least, 'green deeds' i.e. putting the greenest hulls in the water, as an expression of an adjusted mindset on the part of fishers themselves, speaks more volumes than just quoting an exact count of fish-stock per quadrant without any attempt at 'future-proofing' the industry against the ravages of (US)$5/(US)gal of liquid fuel.

Industry-leadership 'down here' still primarily insists on 'counting fish' as the sole 'relevant' focus of their political maneuvers. Much of that seems to be the more and more forlorn hope that the boat they have bonded with under the untenable assumptions of cheap fuel & abundant resource to pay for it will remain the one to go fishing with well into the future under strict definitions of 'sustainability' and harsh energy-cost increases. Much of the fleet-stock here was designed to about $1/gal assumptions - true not too long ago, but never again !

On the other hand, there are laws on the books in DC for instance, that supported federal 'fleet'-construction subsidies, loan-guarantees etc. rejuvenating such dusty provision as 'upgrades' rather than 'radical' new laws allows opening of the door towards encouraging progress in fleet-sustainability. Therefore, in the context of far-reaching incentives across the board to 'green' the economy in all sorts of ways, the small but quite public fishing industry - fishes are in every supermarket - can insist on its share to at least see prototypes built through grants in order to establish a new baseline of sustainable fishing-craft design by 'cutting-edge' R&D in 3-D right on the water for the evening news and the legislative Aide to see, kick, get sick on.

Plus there is the politically rich pickings of asking major/rich environmental organizations to
a.) account for their lengthy and persistent lack of focus on green fishing craft as indeed an inextricably part of the overall eco-system matrix of any plausible definition of 'sustainability' (massive void 'on the record'!).
b.) thus ask them to make up for a massively embarrassing blind-spot via at least stout supporting of prototyping, if not a noteworthy subsidy for and good number of first-come-first-served fishers interested in migrating laterally to these 'future-proofed' low-towards-least carbon-footprint hull- and drive-train geometries.

- There is no escape from energy-cost increases.
- There is no political way to deny before the voting public the need to go as 'green'/least-carbon as you can for politicians, regulators or fishers alike - if sustainability is on the table i.e. seafood supply security under $5+/gal. is at stake. Alarmist language ? Not really, soberly considered...

So it is about boats - at least some prototypes - , what they can and can't do (...) to draw the most favorable public attention upon the immediate and long-term economic reality of a fishing industry the public expects to be sustainable.

To end on a cute 'bon-mot': The (political-regulatory/commercial) sustainability of the fishing industry depends upon the (vessel-economical/least-carbon) sustainability of the fishing industry'.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
"

To which one can legitimately add, that this WoodenBoat Forum can contribute as the only known forum extant by its fundamental convictions and self-defined mission in which this language and substance has a reasonable chance of being understood and developed further.

(What's it with the red stuff ?)

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

I'll give that a 'Fail'.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

O.k. - a Fail minus. The rarest of awards.