Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Do speak up. The fishing industry here is conducted with wooden boats, no need for Fed money to research the possibility of it happening.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

I still believe larch, pines & native hardwoods with which your country is blessed in abundance are greener than synthetics, these woods are ready to use with minimal processing ,
usually face mask & ear defenders
not complete body armour is needed to work them
& the smell , texture & feel of cutting them is rewarding
something ive never found with heavily glued construction
but i am too sensitive to these things
it doesnt bother a lot of people

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

There seem to be two areas here, JW is talking about 3rd world fishing where boats are sometimes built by the owners and usually of wood. Ply and PU glue would be perfect, except that local wood is often cheaper.Then there is the 1st world where most of us live.
I watched Portugal come from a 3rd world dictatorship to modern member of the EU. They were still using sails when I first arrived, but not many. Outboards were 8/15hp, mostly running petrol (gas) and kerosene. All were plank on frame and locally built.
A bit later Yamaha started doing special offers: New engines + grp skiffs and help with the fishing licenses. Gradually all the fleet turned to GRP. The big fishing boats were wood too, they are still being repaired, but new builds are steel. Anyway the EU fishing policies (here we go on politics again) have reduced the size of the fleet by a large amount. The wooden boats were the first to go. I didn't see a single ply boat , of any size, working. Talking to the guys, ply was not a good material on cost, repairabilty or durability. Epoxy and glass were expensive. A few tried coating planked boats with polyester and glass. We know what happens next. But they got a couple more years out them.
A friend wanted a small trad build for a tender to his tourist trip 40ft ex fishing boat. No takers for the build in the south. He had to go 500km north to find a yard prepared to do it.

Here in France, the area produces 40% of the oysters in the country. The boats are specialised flat bottomed raft like boxes with cranked up bows. Powered by 200hp O/Bs which can by raised vertically for shallow running and grounding out on the beds. There are many abandoned planked ones and the odd cared for wooden one. No ply again. All the operational ones are aluminium.
There are some plank on frame fishing boats in the 30/40ft range, trawlers and scollop dredgers, I don't think there has been a new one built for some time.


Just observations.
A

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

My concerns and interest are much in line with John Welsford's. I've done some work examining the impact of technological change (and increased capital cost) in indigenous fisheries in Papua New Guinea. I've written a piece about it (Canoes, subsistence and conservation in the Louisiade Archipelago of Papua New Guinea)http://www.spc.int/coastfish/news/Trad/15/Smaalders.pdf that may be of interest to some of you – the canoes are amazing craft, and worth a look even if you’re less interested in the fisheries issues.

In those islands the shift that was occurring (from traditional planked sailing proas to fiberglass outboard skiffs) threatened both the marine resources (the ‘glass boats are faster, allow for higher catches, and demand higher incomes due to fuel bills and debt service) and the communities (the wooden boats are an integral element of cultural and trading linkages in the islands that have developed over centuries).

There is a real parallel with the issues that Suzanne and John have raised. Can anyone contribute some additional real world examples?

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Susanne I don't think I like you or your ideas.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Give each other a hug. A big one.

A note on personal style - to each their own: with those giddy 'faces' proliferating on the lapels of a certain folks, things begin to look like those tunics of various operetta-generalissimos...

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

I would propose for those vocal recent/new arrivals who joined in the Group-Hug' around our most flamboyant friends to read through both Threads and then consider the sources of toxicity to a reasonable discussion. Key words would be that "wood is bad for commercial applications - and particularly in winter" (apparently) etc. The record submitted by certain folks is quite stunning in its intensity and insistence.

The frat-row raucus was great fun for some, but did not add any substance to the general point of this Thread. All 'character-defining word-choices' aimed at my address typically come from guys who lost focus early, in public, often, and still repeating. The initial proposition of this Thread is logical enough; and a few sober folks seem to understand it as such. There will be more such folks - while others lay awake at night rolling more spit-balls...

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

About “village” fisheries. Comparisons between them and fisheries such as the Chesapeake or Falmouth ( UK) where the old sailing craft are, or have until recently been fishing are not really valid, these latter fisheries were governed by regulation to manage the catch and preserve a very localized and limited fishery in a very highly populated area, so that’s a very artificial and expensive situation. There are other ways to do that.
Second point, the type of vessel. There has been a suggestion that a simple flat bottomed skiff would suit so there is no need for any design or development work. Not so for several reasons. One is that while the “ flatiron” is common and familiar to those on the East Coast of the USA, its not a type known to the people of the areas that I’m talking about. If the boats are too different they do not gain the acceptance of the users and are used with reluctance if at all.
The boats have to be consistent with their perceptions of what a “good boat” will be, and that generally means that they are quite different to our ideas. Research is needed, and at the time that I was asked to do the job, I was fortunately able to contact through our Defence Department a very keen small boat owner who was stationed in East Timor. Major Pohio was interested enough to go and interview a number of people for me and from that she was able to make some suggestions as to the fishery, the conditions where they would be used and the style of boat.
She was also able to advise as to the skill base of the likely builders, the availability of materials and the economic situation, all of which has an impact on the design .
The availability of materials was a surprise by the way, it seemed that during the Indonesian occupation the forests had been very heavily logged for export of plywood and sawn lumber. The traditional dugout was not feasible due to the lack of logs so alternatives had to be considered.
In addition to that, she advised that the UNFAO had supplied several “fishing boats” that had been a real herd of marine white elephants. Although built locally ply over sawn frames, they were 24ft deep vee planing power boats with 2 x 90 hp motors. The cost, even heavily subsidized, was around US$30,000,00 . The cost of operation was as you can imagine very high, and this in an area where the average wage was around US$14 a day and that in an area with about 60% unemployment.
The style of fishery was also to be considered. A boat suited to tonging for oysters will be different to a boat suited to stop netting, or hauling pots, or longlining and so on.
In this case long lining, cast netting and tending fish traps were the common fishing methods but some trolling was envisaged as there was a seasonal fishery in that respect.
The environment is an issue, in this case the boats were mostly being used in quite open waters, and launched off surf beaches.
Having found all that out, it was evident that a solution that would be quite unconventional by our standards was needed.
I was advised by the principal of the NGO aid agency I was working with that there were “hundreds” of 15 hp Yamaha outboards in containers, and where a boat was available a motor would be provided. These being particularly suited as they were within the “free licence” size, very reliable, easy to service and cheap to run.
The people in this area are used to long slim boats, generally with outriggers ( check out the Indonesian “Banka” style boats) and paddle rather than row.
I had been asked for a short term solution, a very large number of boats were needed and finance was very short. My solution was a “fat canoe” of very simple shape, really a much elongated and high sided plywood power dory with a few unique features. The motor is in a well, the boat has about 800 kg of air tank buoyancy, the frame heads are reinforced and stick up beyond the gunwale so with some heavy bamboo poles a pair of boats can be lashed together to make a big boat for a special purpose ( one pair was seen carrying a Toyota pickup between islands) and the construction kept as simple as possible.
The materials are mostly readily available ( from Australian Plantation grown logs) waterproof bonded utility plywood over lumberyard lumber, the joints engineered for cheap polyurethane adhesives and galvanized fastenings, the paint intended to be cheap plastic paint. Built like that they were about 10% of the cost of the UNFAO design and a fraction of the cost to run.
The NGO sent a boatbuilder up there to establish a boatbuilding school, and a number of supporters, me included toured junkshops collecting tools which were fettled and sharpened and sent up with oilstones and files so the recipients could be taught to maintain them . Each “class” came in, built a couple of boats and graduated with a full set of patterns, (many were illiterate) a set of hand tools sufficient to build these boats, and enough materials for two boats. They went back to their villages, built and sold those boats and bought more materials to carry on. The school, with four builders and one instructor was turning out two boats a week!
In some cases they taught more to build the boats, and one can imagine the type carrying on well beyond its intended short term role.
Some of the thank you letters I received were very humbling, it was one of the most rewarding projects that I’ve been involved in. Since then several small aid agencies have built that same boat and another designed for a similar situation.
The point of this rambling diatribe is that there are many factors in designing a successful boat for these fisheries or communities, and many of those factors are not immediately apparent to the casual viewer. If all of those factors are not considered, then the project wont work. Huge amounts of aid money is wasted every year in this very way.
I believe that there is a place for wooden working boats, ranging from very simple and modest craft such as described above, to quite sophisticated ones. Not only fishing, but many of the 3rd world island, riverine and coastal people would benefit from being able to build and run their own freight and passenger craft, and in doing so retain control and ownership keeping profits and employment local.

I would enjoy discussing the many possibilities and permutations involved.

John Welsford

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Amen.

Thank you, John.

For a moment I thought sanity had fled the northeast.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Northeastern New Zealand?

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Thanks you John Welsford and Nauvoo for injecting some much needed 'oxygen' into this Thread.

Good account by Welsford's on his laudible successful efforts helping out getting an apparently much needed wooden working craft project done, and spawning others. Gratifying indeed to hear about this. Much less prejudice seems to have stood in the way than you might have found elsewhere

Good to see Nauvoo's presence.

I'll wait with related input on policy and hardware issues until late tomorrow. A wooden working craft project demands my attention...

I hope I did not jinx Welsford's effort at keeping the 'Termites' at bay ?!

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

That's a sickening response from a supposedly adult person. Self-congratulatory, judgmental, and condescending all at the same time. 'Termites" indeed. How childish.

- Norm

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Wow, I haven't seen a thread like this since Oyster and Joe went at it hammer and tongs.

I have to admit, after reading this thread and the one in the building section, I still don't understand what is being proposed except a new sub forum. The why of it escapes me. The explanation is an example of convoluted sentence construction. Perhaps the original poster can, in simple terms and without a lot of offhanded remarks, explain just what is being proposed and why?

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Back to the beginning.

Yes I would like to see a thread dedicated to wooden working boats. I'd like it to include historical examples including those older boats still working , current wooden boats, and possible future developments.
I would like the thread to have a world focus not just North America as there are many niche fisheries where wooden boats are appropriate as well as ferry and general freight useage.
Huge areas of the South and West Pacific, Eastern Indian ocean, and South East Asia have high populations living on the coast or on islands, are relatively undeveloped economically and are experiencing much change including deforestation which is affecting the materials supply for boatbuilding.
There is some expertese on this forum that could constructively work up possible solutions to the problem of keeping the village fisheries, the local ferries and the marine pickup truck classes of boats available to the local people.

John Welsford

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

John, you really understand what this is about. Queue for the rest to follow.
A
I still dont think that another forum is needed, working boats have a space here.They are not often discussed in their working capacity, more as recreation boats.
A

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

John, it's simple really. If you want a thread like that, start a thread like that. If it's of interest (and it will be, I bet), people will join in. In not, they won't. No votes, no polls, no separate categories, no permission required, no need to bother the moderator, no need to change the status quo.

Just do it.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

I thought we were finally done beating this horse.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Good ideas are hard to kill.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Ah, my mistake, I should have said "Forum" rather than thread. Try again.
I'd like to see a dedicated area for this subject as I think its one deserving of its own space.

John Welsford

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Call me old fashioned but hasn't any thread with a title already craved out its own space? What I wonder is: why can't richer, more developed countries share more sophisticated boat building methods with poorer, less developed ones? It seems like rounder, more efficient, lighter, stronger, ply lapstrake hulls could someday replace the simpler slab-sided boats of poor countries' boats if the templates for plank shapes and molds etc. were provided along with a good set of instructions and some glue. In other words, is glue lapstrake just too expensive for use in third world countries? Maybe an instruction booket could be developed that used pictures instead of words for building a good, efficient, strong, lightweight, glued lapstrake fishing boat.

As for whether or not wooden working craft should have its own category? Sure, why not? But it's pretty much up to our host to make such decisions for us. The best we can do is pray to God.....er, I mean Scott, to grant us a sticky.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

I am glad this Thread continues in a productive vein.

The Wooden Working-Craft Forum would become a dedicated permanent go-to resource with a growing amount of substance and reputation. A Thread that can eventually disappear in the sands of time.

Nobody keeps 'advanced shapes' out of the hands of anyone. In fact, many developing nations have their own rich/deep history of indigenous shapes and adaptations of various construction-methods. Quite a few don't have to wait for us folks to bless them with 'advanced' wisdom.

Re-Elevation by design, construction and operation of modern wooden working craft re-emphasizes these local assets and thus revalues their own wood-resources as more than 'trash-wood' or obstacles to a fine palm-oil plantation. Some folks earlier in this Thread can't even talk about this approach...

It is 'western sage realism' that has reduced in too many minds - here and 'there' - the reputation of the utility of this material; just re-read the flamboyant wood-denegrating nonsense some folks were compelled to put into the permanent memory of this WoodenBoat website on the occasion of these two Threads.

Local/regional opportunities and needs will define the relevance of wooden working craft in such locales - as it always has. What is necessary - at least in this Forum - is to overcome the self-important - as in 'we are very advanced since we know how to spell 'Klegecell-core' or 'autoclaved carbon-fiber matrix' - prejudice against re-considering the merits of the material and its rich body of myriads of well-evolved skills and tricks to utilize the stuff to best purpose.

There is no 'one-material-fits-all-needs' gospel pushed here; we'll leave that to the warring factions in the purely-synthetic-materials universe; 'carbon-footprint' and 'sustainability' - never mind 'renewability' - are missing from their Thesaurus altogether, ergo not exactly leading-edge thinking in this day and age...

We know enough about various wooden boat construction-methods to focus in this particular on-line/in-print community on an increasingly sophisticated approach - or just re-discovery (!!) - to maximize the material's virtues in the context of 21st century concerns and outright demands - both economical and ecological ones.

Anybody who now goes apoplectic because 'this is political after all' should reconsider the domestic or any other place's economic politics of wood-growing, -cutting, -replanting etc. Clear-cutting, diminution of tropical forests, the effects of climate change on domestic or foreign wood-species health and -survival etc. are all very 'political' indeed. A perfectly executed Honduras Mahagony yacht may not be based on forestry-practices that you can sleep on.

The more we value the virtues of the stuff - I am wearing oxygen mask to breath as I ascend to highest heights - the more we have a chance to retain and extend the relevance of using it across a broad spectrum of applications and locations between eternal ice and tropical swamps.

Part of this opportunity is the sober reconsideration of overcoming certain disadvantages of the material by design, construction and operation. And there is a broad range of such approaches available, ready for detailed attention and experimentation - nothing new really - to extend utility and economic performance of the stuff. No particular choices about hull-shapes, construction-approach, and operating practices can be 'off-limits'. The broader the scope, the broader and 'sustainable' the relevance of the discussion and execution along these lines.

Some folks will eschew any and all 'modern materials'. Others will pursue their ideas of what they put up as their 'defensible' mix of 'renewable' and (likely) fossil-based materials to enhance each other in order to extend the utilty of the craft. And that body of extant and emerging knowledge must be captured in a Forum that allows its accumulation and ready access to it for the uninitiated and 'old hands' alike.

Check out the sister-Thread under Construction-...

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

food for thought, certainly.


hmmm :confused:

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

That's all I can ask.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

What do you have against scarf joints for plywood construction?

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Labor-cost, added to by loss of sheet-length. Cost of gadgets to do 'the perfect scarf(ph?)'.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

The butt blocks get in the way of the framing. It takes more time to build around them. They get in the way of drainage. The panels won't bend fair. They're a source of weakness as well as being a stress riser.

What you gain in time not making scarfs, you lose later on, trying to build around around the bump on the inside of your smooth skin.


IMHO, but these are reasonable conclusions shared by many who have built in plywood and shouldn't be dismissed lightly.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

We like to refer those gadgets as tools Might as well spring for them in the beginning because you'll be needing them anyway, in order to finish the boat.:)

If you can't make a suitable scarf in plywood with epoxy, you really have no business building a boat. It's not that hard to learn to make a scarf and the knowledge enables the builder to think in a much more sophisticated manner about the job he's doing. Scarfing is the essential tool needed for optimal utilization of plywood.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...1/DSC04816.jpg


Gadgets...........Sheet plywood, 49 buck angle grinder, add a palm sander to clean up the seam, five minutes at the most includes a cigarette break and pop the top on a beer to let the dust settle, and glue up. Oh well,,, have fun Jim..:cool: The imperfect scarf kid over and out.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Hey! That's my favorite boatbuilding tool too,if you exclude my block plane and my nifty bambino dividers which I'll learn how to use properly one day :D The grinder is also a veritable speed demon when it come to laying down some hollow(dishing out) on bits to be epoxied together. Best gadget I ever met!

Cheers!


Peter

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Suzanne, be so kind as to allow me, in the absence of Mr. McMullen, to deflect the juvenile witticisms of these two Bilge ruffians and send them packing, while we continue our most illuminating conversation.. :D

"Peter, I'm so disappointed in you. I expect this kind of thing from Erster, but you? For shame. You both realize that this little outburst will end up on your Permanent Forum Record, don't you. Now, hand over those grinders and go wait in the car."

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Dear Mr.Ledger,

I ain't handin' anything over 'tils ya teach me how to properly use my bambino dividers! And besides, I ain't no "bilge ruffian".....so take that and,and....I also ain't waitin' in no car!!! I'll be over at the local taverne if ya needs me! So there!!


Cheers! :D:D


Peter, the un-repentant

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

From my contact with the commercial fisheries world (so far I've been a fisherman, a boatbuilder, and a boat designer), the three biggest concerns in my area (Nova Scotia & Newfoundland) regarding hull material in the boat sizes that have been discussed in this thread are:

1.) Initial cost of the hull
2.) Repairability of the hull (ease & cost)
3.) Resistance to damage (impact and chafe)

Initial cost of the hull encompasses both the cost of materials and labour to construct, including such sticky bits as local strengthening to accept winches and other deck hardware. One must also pay attention to the wage differential between a boatbuilder in, say, FRP or steel as opposed to the higher-priced wooden boatbuilder.

Repairability should address both tools required and complexity of the repair process, as well as labour rates for qualified repairers and availability and cost of materials.

Damage resistance is very important around here due to both the type of fishing gear used (impact and chafe on the hull from ropes, chains, traps, etc.) and the presence of ice (both "bergy bits" at sea and skim ice in harbour). In our more northerly fisheries such as along the shores of Cape Breton and Newfoundland, there often exists sea ice (pan ice, slob ice, and growlers) that must be shouldered aside for the vessel to depart or enter port. This is terribly hard on hull surfaces and requires constant attention for the hull to remain seaworthy.

There is also the question of the source of training for construction in the boatbuilding method that is being proposed - how would the dissemination of technology to workers be addressed?

As I am yet to be convinced by Suzanne's arguments so far that these issues can be overcome with foam-cored plywood hulls (if I am correct in that this is basically the method that she is advocating), would she be so kind as to offer her thoughts on these subjects?

Please do not the questions above as being overtly negative; I am curious to hear her thoughts on these questions and am willing to learn new things. I also believe that if a new idea can stand up to rigourous questioning it may well truly be a good new idea...

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Peter, have you ever seen pics of oyster carving and shaping a builtup deadrise v-bottom with that grinder. He's an artist, kinda like those guys that do chainsaw art.

I didn't know you smoked Mike?;)

sorry for the thread drift

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Yup, I seen it Paul :) Them thar grinders is real good too for roughin' in the bevel on nice oak stems too and for dealing with alot of rounding over of plywood edges when you don't want to lose the razor edge on your best planes. Sweetest tool in the tool box !

As for Mike smokin'.......the way his latest build went together I'd say he was not only smokin' but going like a house on fire :D:D


Cheers!


Peter

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Seconded with enthusiasm.

- Norm

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

These are being used a lot in the North sea (Denmark). But they are not being build anymore. Its solid oak all the way through and its expensive to work and difficult to find.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/y...ME7/img352.jpg
I find it very hard to imagine these guys accepting a plywood hull for goind fishing in the crude north sea. They´ll prefer steel boats then. But they´ll stay with their oak wonders for long time.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

This Thread is live and kicking - arm-wrestling included. Today we'll get deeper into the heart of one approach to the subject. Hold on for this major contribution to the Canon, i.e. 'state-of-the-art' that is...

However annoying to some folks, this is based on work out of this office of well over 50 years, with Phil's 1960 plywood/polyester-resin/glass cat-rigged leeboard sharpie 33'x7' POINTER still alive after rebuild - not bad for a 2-3 season pleasureboat even.


1.) Ply/lumber/epoxy/glass/foam builder Peter Lenihan can do no wrong in my book - he's actually doing this kind of work. Much of the construction-methodology on his project WINDEMERE has been done before and is a predecessor of what the approach for 4-season commercial craft would be now.


2.) (Mr. Ledger) Plywood & Butt-Blocks: There is no place on the plans for any butt-blocks on anything we've proposed between 31'x3000lbs (#679) Monitor/'Robin Jean' or the concept study for 70'x30,000lbs offshore fisherman.

Whether the 70 or so 1/4"- 1/2" ply-sheets on the 31-footer or 1000+ on the 70-footer, grinding that fine edge will be a manhours 'black-hole' - and 'cruel and unusual punishment' and thus 'unconstitutional'...

The underlying structural-assembly principles were laid out in M.A.I.B. over 2 years ago on the 31-footer:
- a. It has Payson-Joints on hull topsides and raised-deck.
- b. Foredeck and Rooftop are ply-foam-ply sandwich with occasional Payson-Joint under final glass.
- c. Hull-bottom features a 50:50 overlap of 2x 1/2" sheets, beginning with a Payson-Joint on the outside before ginger turning - with bracing to keep that joint from hinging - plus 2" foam-core between chinelogs and central keel/keelson spine with another 1/2" of ply, plus glass, epoxy, optionally rubber tiles for dropping that anvil (?) ...

So there are 3 sub-approaches even on this entry-level light inshore working-craft built by 2 non-boat-builders and worked this year in the Commercial Fisheries.


3.) No Butt-Blocks and no 'Framing' on these hulls:
- Beyond clamp, chinelogs, cleats, full- and partial bulkheads there are no 'frames'.
- Between hull-skin thickness of at least 2+" on the 70-footer backed by foam and ply you will have laminations readily reaching 6-9"...
- plus rubrails, additional outside-skin reinforcements/wearable surfaces for hard wear hauling traps and during icing.


4.) Bending long plywood hull-panels ?!:
- The single-layer Payson-jointed top- and raised-deck sides on #679 bends well-enough for fairness; then backed up by foam.
- Even on her, the outside-skin 2x1/2" bottom-panel gets laminated 50:50 over a set of matching-curve 'saw-horses'.
- On the 70-footer's topsides-panel, four+ 1/2" layers at 50:50 get laminated to pre-bend the known curvature right into the panel; there will be just enough 'give' for minor adjustments.
- Multiply at will for bottom-panels and larger types.


5.) Rot with 'hohum' domestically/farm-grown marine-grade fir with 'footballs' and other warts:
With this thick and stiff lamination-schedule, the 'built-in' rot will be confined to one sheet at a time, surrounded by butt-joints and lamination-gluelines full of uncooperative epoxy.


6.) Plywood Butt-Blocks on conventional plank-on-frame hulls: Phil Bolger's liveaboard 48'x11'x2'8x31000lbs "Resolution" of '78-vintage was built of
- steam-bent RED OAK (!) framing,
- over a square 8000lbs lead structural back-bone scarfed vertically on both ends into 100+year old yellow pine for keel structure towards both ends,
- with a mix of oak and mahagony planking butt-blocked with bronze-bolted plywood-cum-cuprinol butts overlapping also above and below, and always landing between the bent frames. Brad Story of 7-generation Essex, Massachusetts ship-builder fame thought of it, agreed, executed it, and there she sits visible from GOOGLE-Earth in our front-yard.


7.) Wage-Differentials:
Once you approach this type boat-building as
a.) the fairly unsophisticated exercise that we designed it to be,
and then you see it as
b.) a commercial proposition - vs. a philosophical expression of a 'life-style', as some insist - to a commercial wish-list, it is reasonable to expect that, beyond materials-cost and associated labor-quantity differences, the hourly-rate might begin to level as local/regional competition evolves under the mix of dictates of economy, sustainability (incl. renewability), thermal performance (yes, Victoria!), 'sinking-resistance' - with not all these attributes applying to all projects of course.

Again two non-boatbuilders put 31' "Robin Jean" together in a barn. In a fully set-up shop w/ reasonable climate control much more can be done per time-unit.


8.) Localized reinforcements against wear:
On these ply-based hull-structures a variety of lamination-schedules are conceivable that can include sacrificial layers that get worn out and replaced periodically, so common for centuries now in conventional sawn-/bent-frame-cum-planking wooden construction.
These removable/replaceable layers can be ply, pressure-treated or plain lumber, UHMW and other plastics, metal, all depending on where, why, and for what cost in material and labor over time. And much of that depends on the given theater of operation.


9.) Utility of any given approach for whom, when, where and why ?
As Welsford patiently points out so correctly in the sister-Thread under Construction..., it all depends on where you design for whose application where - as our biases and experiences will be attractive/competitive or self-limiting as the case may be.

10.) Aldebaran's note:
This should be under 9.) really.
Those fully-evolved-under-regulation older wooden types out of "100% oak" may actually show that between the (arbitrary) regulation-rooted proportions, insistence on one hull-material without much apparenty forethought as to replantings for wooden-boat-building industrial sustainability, and deep roots and thus dead-end limitations based on the conventions of just that material, don't make for a sustainable mindset to guide the family-enterprise or industrial policy. Phil and I have learned that fishermen will use for fishing what they choose under given constraints and pressures to stay in business and to stay alive - if at all possible. The variety of hull-materials and hull-shapes plus sizes in their given material here in Gloucester, Mass. USA alone speaks volumes as to the flexibility and adaptability of fishers. If you show them and it works, they'll consider. They won't wait for 'outside' counsel to decree by 'Blue Ribbon' panel as to what they think will work or not. Studying pictures of fishing-ports is instructive that way. If one type prevails almost exclusively, you might want to look at some regulatory dictate now, or generations ago, that distorts what is perceived as desirable, even just plain 'conceivable' - as some in this Thread demonstrate. While it may be a well-expressed peak of desirable working-craft characteristics here and there, it is quite likely that a samey-looking fleet in a fishing-port is a sign of regulatory and other forms of decadence and thus reduced viability as an industry under changing economic and ecological demands.

I hope this answers some of those criticisms and objections. And I do see them in the spirit of proposing this new Forum on the basis of sober consideration of options, opportunities, and challenges.

As for Erster: "Keep on grindin', Bud... Just stay away from them incisers."

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Far from being a "black hole" I think that I could cut scarfs on seventy panels in a matter of days. If you were anticipating that volume of material it would be a fairly straightforward matter to jig up and worthwhile to tool up for dealing with a quantity of scarfs. Even on a doubled bottom, the scarf would be a better choice as it seals the end grain to the ply.




BTW, the gratuitous jab at Oyster at the end of your post is unfortunate, and is one of the reasons that you're having difficulty getting a conversation going here. The proper format is to discuss valid points, whether you agree or not, and ignore posts you feel beneath you. Taunting is poor form above the bilge and likely to get you the same in return.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Nahh, I think Erster/Oyster/Bill (?) has earned his stripes over many 'characteristic' entries at everyone and anthing. No need to demote now. I reckon I should think of him every once in a while to encourage him so we'll eventually benefit from his richest of palates of constructive offerings.

So you feel the need to scarf from dozens to hundreds of sheets in order to "... seal the end grain of the ply..." ? Assuming you expect to get paid for adding to the bill your time as counted by " a matter of days", when will you have added another 4-digit cost line-item ? For what ? This is not going to be a commercial proposition after all ??

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Mike is only one of the best and most knowledgeable of the wooden boat builders and restorers that posts here. His experience covers a very broad range of size and types of boats over a long career. That's not something that should be dismissed so casually.