Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

To state the obvious, wood is pretty much the only material we can predictably grow more of in a broad range of species for a broad range of applications on the hull.

Focussing on wooden working craft under a dedicated category would allow concentrating on the inherent 'sustainability' of the material and the 'lower-carbon' nature of such craft.

WOODENBOAT magazine is in a unique historic position to lead in the re-assertion of wood-based construction-methods in the context of reducing carbon across a range of 'western' working craft.

On the background of extant wooden working craft here and from anywhere around the globe, discussing various opportunities could add to the political legitimacy of the material under progressively growing concerns of 'sustainability (there's a pun in there somewhere).

We are all familiar with recent/current-vintage wooden Lobsterboats, Navy Minesweepers, Whalewatchers, luxury Charterboats etc. More or less aggressive pursuit of further options to use wood as the primary hull-material in the working craft universe should have distinct advantages for designers, builders, over readers and environmentally-minded activists, to would-be operators so far leary of 'plant-matter' in their future.

With WOODENBOAT's reputation and near global availability, this could be a rewarding addition to our discourse, enjoyment, and political relevance of the magazine and this forum. After all, wood has always offered a lot, and might reassert itself again, as other more 'finite' materials go 'stratospheric' costwise and raise concerns about their carbon-footprint.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Looks like the 'action' on this topic is over on 'Building/etc.' Add your view or just keep track there !

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

You could lock this thread also, with a link shown to the other thread.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

A dedicated wooden workboat design and or build category?
I think that would be a very good idea.

John Welsford

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

A grand idea indeed and perhaps, if the powers that be are reading this(Hi Carl,Scott et al!) then I would suggest this http://www.proboat.com/. needs its' own forum distinct from the leisure/pleasure boat crowd.

Cheers!

Peter

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Hello Peter,
I'd like to keep it within this Site for several reasons:
1. This is the primary Go-To location for 'wooden boats'.

2. Quite a few of our wooden pleasure-boat lovers may have odd prejudices when it comes to the use of the material for commercial purposes. Which may result in them not being the best ambassadors for the cause if they are not in immediate proximity to the matter being discussed. Sharing and thus growing the knowledge-base for wood in these applications might indeed enrich the discourse, spread 'fact'-based thinking amongst all afficionados of the stuff, and thus broaden the discussion and use.

3. In a similar vein, would-be commercial users consulting this site would find a rich body of work, discussions, facts on the material and its various uses, thus rapidly acquiring familiarity and thus comfort with the 'wooden boat' universe by accessing relevant bits and pieces of this electronic archive. This is THEE place to discuss the matter anywhere on the globe.

4. Our hard-core 'anti-vegetable-matter' purveyors of 'sober' hull-materials convictions would find themselves in an serious, since very mature environment, which might challenge their deep-seated - as in unexamined - preferences for so-called 'advanced'/industrial/non-renewable materials presumed to be 'superior across the board'. Their dominance in contemporary industrial/High-Carbon boat-building in general has not resulted in a balanced weighing of options for prospective clients, often dismissing the matter as the preoccupations of 'romantics' - see sister-thread under 'Building'.

As quite a few might agree, wood has lot of 'life' left in it beyond Bolger-boxes or Bolger's most expensive voluptuous Museum-quality floating assemblies of structures of rare species and stunningly-matched veneers 'miles deep' under 20 coats of hand-rubbed varnish. It is the oldest industrial material in durable construction of boats known to man. And it will continue to matter.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Instead of one thread in Building and Repair, and an identical in Designs, you should have just put one thread in the Bilge.

By your inflamatory remarks and dismissive attitude for opinions that don't agree with yours, your lack of reasoned response to valid arguments and your sly digs, you're setting a Bilge-like tone that doesn't really belong up here.

Nobody's said anything in either of your threads that deserves a response like that.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Say, what ??

Who feels violated by this thread ? Where's the offense ?

You seem to just dislike any robust reality-check questioning limited-range orthodoxies. And beyond locally reinforcing wooden working craft with various metals and plastics, most participants in this thread engage the discussion on the assumption that wood is useful stuff for this application.

'Down there' and 'up here' seems a personal approach, somewhat out of keeping with an open forum, this age, and this location.

Opinion is good. Being aggravated by substantive perspectives and actual options seems unconstructive.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

If you look at the magazine or the forum, the target reader sure isn't working boatmen. I'd be surprised if professionals have time for fancy pretentious eco BS but it could have great entertainment value.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

"Eco-BS" as an idea only appeals to the under-initiated. Commercial "professional" Fishing depends of 'eco'-knowledge, -practices and long-term outlook to make the industry sustainable. This is only about remaining commercially and politically viable. Check sister-Thread under 'Building-'.

And what would be wrong with attracting some of that potential readership ? WOODENBOAT is not a refugium from reality, is indeed powered fiscally by very commercial principles. And builders can always use another contract.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Since when?

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

...refugium peccatorum :D

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

And we like it like that.:D

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

yes, for the light-hearted sinners :D

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

A dedicated Working Craft category would cover many bases, and invite information and discussion from real builders and users. I think it's very much needed and would see a lot of reading and posting traffic.

I like working craft, and I'm behind the proposition that it's necessary to move in the direction of a more efficient and sensible use of resources (materials and fuel) in all aspects of boating. I also think that information shared on that subject would be a huge help to amateur builders, be they professional fishermen or not, in making boat building decisions.

I'm sorry to have to say it in my first post, but looking over this and the other thread it seems there are a few who simply have a bone to pick with the OP. That's a shame; their repeated taunts are probably discouraging others from participating.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Another ERSTER Drive-By...

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Welcome Nauvoo,
Ignore ERSTER and his Group. They suffer from the 'I hate Wood for serious purpose' problem. They'll get over it - or not.
Wood is too relevant a material to have these 'Termites' have at it unbridled.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

They also suffer from having built a boat or two and recognize a fraud when they see one.

You evasions and refusal to engage the simplest question raises the possibility that you don't really know much about the construction of the type of boats you that you so fervently endorse.

You blow in here like Moses coming down from the mountain and expect to hand out your gospel unquestioned and we're all supposed to 'roll over". :rolleyes:

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

More Termites around these parts.

Any new readers of this Thread may want to look at the Sister-Thread in the Building... Forum for the progressivedly comedic record offered by some in response to the sensible proposal that caught your eye at the top of the Thread. You have a lot of opportunity to balance the discussion, as Messrs. Ledger, Wright and Erster are now down to doing things with - or to (?) - 'inflatables'.

Nauvoo understood the point after the first read.

Termites have other interests...

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Here's a free advertisement for you.

Your 69'-11" X 14'-7" X 3'-1" (8'-2" board down) 61,000 lbs full load displacement, fir plywood and blue (pink?) foam commercial fishing vessel with up to 9" ply/foam/ply hull thickness in way of the fish holds. Circa 2005 I think.

Best wishes and go for it!

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...1/70footer.jpg

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Susanne,

Thank you for the welcome :).

They insist that your thread promotes a self interest, yet I hear you promoting new ideas and inviting discourse. Fortunately the dissenters can be counted on less than one hand.

If the moderators are against this idea in the end, perhaps you would be willing to introduce these ideas as individual threads, as time permits?

I don't know and haven't met Susanne but so far she's running rings around her adversaries without help from anyone.

Her ideas should and will be taken seriously, despite attempts to shout her down.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Absolutely right Nauvoo and welcome to you. Fortunately Susanne's ideas are available for all in numerous published articles so you'll be able to study them further.

Here's one (direct quote, MAIB Vol 25, #8, Sept 1, 2007): "Plywood is the ONLY choice for rapid one-off construction of custom hulls (100+ feet) that require the inherent positive attributes listed here. Hulls built this way can be extensively modified without violating any matrix and compromising structural integrity."

Sounds good to me. I'm sure you'll be anticipating, along with me and many others, the launch and christening of the "Pro Bono 100" at a Greenfield yard in the near future.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Nauvoo, you are either rather naive or a troll. I can't be alone in having to read Susanne's stuff several times to figure out what she is trying to say. Not a good way to get yourself across.

Oh. I expect to get some comment or other to suggest I suffer from a cognitive problem or some such. I can live with it.
A

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

not at all Andrew , Susanne, can you please tell us clearly what it is you want

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Well, since you have decreed that those are the only two possible choices, I must confess: I'm a naive troll :rolleyes:. So sue me.

I'm also glad, Andrewe, that you have learned to live with your cognitive problem.

Therein lies the problem - none of the critics - who thus far number very few in light of the size of this forum - are willing to consider any point of view other than the very narrow one they've repeatedly bleated here.

Susanne is asking the moderators to provide a platform to discuss the use of wood as a primary construction material somewhere we don't see it anymore - commercial craft.

I would suggest that whatever techniques evolve from that approach would also benefit us when used for the building of recreational craft - another commercial endeavor.

No where does she imply that such a platform would be used to advertise her N.A. wares. She would (and should) participate and add to our knowledge.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

I'd like to make a couple of points if I may... first its kinda presumptive maybe sorta just a little... for a relative forum newbie such as Susanne to take it upon herself to proclaim a need for a new subforum. And, secondly, and more pragmatically, why the need for a new subforum, won't the various topics fit quite well right here in the designs section?:confused:

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

I'm with Paul on this issue.
We already have some lightly used sections that should meet the needs of any posts concerning working craft. Lets see how this works:
If it's about building or repairing working craft you can use the Building/Repair section.
If it's about designs related to working craft you can use the Designs/Plans section.
If it's about people or places involved in the design/construction/operation of working craft you can use the People & Places section.

What is it about people always wanting something new, the sections of the forum may be used but they still work, most still under manufacturers warranty. For those of you that figure you just have to have a shiny new section on the forum, I suggest you go with a preowned section and get yourself a "new-section" scented air freshener. (It should be noted that no amount of air fresheners can removed the stink from the bilge.)

But if we have to have new sections I suggest:
I may appreciate a schooner section.
Margo may appreciate a Concordia section.
Thorne may appreciate a row/sail section.
Tylerdurden may appreciate a conspiracy & doomsday section.

What you say, we already have sections for those...
Right you are!

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

I can't resist de-constructing this diatribe, just in case anyone is taking her seriously. The errors, contradictions and statement of opinion as fact are rampant and IMO, ridiculous.

As a generic statement, this may be a valid assertion, but it is hardly a fact. However, she is using the generic assertion to support a specific debating point. The generic should be viewed with special skepticism because the actual discussion concerns commercial wooden boats, rather than those meant for recreation. The readership of the magazine and the members of this Forum are, by and large, recreational users - an assertion not in dispute.


The poster has made it clear elsewhere who she means to target with the possessive adjective "our". The presumption that such people belong to her in even the slightest sense is offensive, to me at least. Further, her characterization of their opinions as "odd prejudices" seems to be based solely on the fact that they differ from hers. The "odd" label is insulting and dismissive, and is offered with no support or justification at all.


I'm not certain I know what she is attempting to say here. However, all she has really offered is an unsupported judgement on the fitness of certain people to discuss the "cause", whatever that is. The last section, "if they are in not in immediate proximity to the matter", makes absolutely no sense of any kind - it's barely English. "Immediate proximity" is a nonsense construction that has no meaning at all in this context.

I could comment on the baffle-gab, new-age nature of a phrase such as "sharing and thus growing the knowledge-base for wood in these applications". She says 'growing', but she actually means 'increasing', 'enhancing' or 'improving'. One wonders why she didn't just say one of those things. I would also question the use of quotes around the word fact.


First, in a similar vein to what, exactly? Second, any would-be commercial user would already find this site to be a rich source of information - an extensive 'knowledge-base' in fact (Quotes used properly, you might notice) that many people have already used and acknowledged. As a newbie here, she likely doesn't know about them.

Once one struggles past the baffle-gab, we find a textbook example of logical fallacy - in this case the belief that the assumed truth of one assertion (the preferences are 'deep-seated') proves the truth of the other (the preferences are 'unexamined'). It's an old debating trick that depends on speed of assault to get past the opponent's defenses. It's a basic "bullshite baffles brains" approach.


This is confusing, but in fact it contains the only statement I can find anywhere in this that has merit enough to be discussed. However, the matter to be discussed is not the concept of building in low-carbon materials, but rather the truth of the assertion (not fact) that the debate 'in general has not resulted in a balanced weighing of options for prospective clients'. The problem is that she would then rather refer us to a contentious conversation elsewhere than actually have a conversation here.

I'm sorry if I don't get the point, but is she actually suggesting that anyone thinks that Mr. Bolger's boats are the 'ne plus ultra' of wooden boats, commercial or otherwise? Is she suggesting that all of us build boats that require or even suit 20 coats of varnish? It's clearly nonsense.

Another old debating trick: End a diatribe with an assertion that you know your audience will accept. If you've been successful in baffling them with what came before, they end up thinking they agree with you, because finally you said something that made sense. Let's avoid falling for it here, shall we?:rolleyes:

- Norm

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Nauvoo,
Nice to see you are up to speed on the OPs style of taunting, I put it as bait, easy catch.
This is about fishing, no?:rolleyes:
A

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Another vote for leaving things as they are... No reason what so ever to start another section of the forum to accommodate wood commercial craft when all possible topics can already be placed in the existing sections. PB&F have been long time forum members and their "Robin Jean" boat design seems like a very interesting design. Its ashame Susanne is now caught up in slugfest in two different threads about the same non issue.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Quite, there has been very little said about Comercial wooden boats on either of the threads that wouldn't fit in the existing sections. The rest should be in the bilge.
A

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?

NO

JD

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

It is official. NAUVOO and Susanne @PB&F are correct in their understanding of the topic.

To refresh, and re-stimulate contrarians' letter-by-letter text-critical analysis, deepening of personally-dug conceptual potholes, and other assorted 'sporting impulses' generally categorizable as 'jousting' - in contrast to considering the following proposition:
(It sounds simple and obvious enough, but not necessarily for all...)

To state the obvious, wood is pretty much the only material we can predictably grow more of in a broad range of species for a broad range of applications on the hull.

Focussing on wooden working craft under a dedicated category would allow concentrating on the inherent 'sustainability' of the material and the 'lower-carbon' nature of such craft.

WOODENBOAT magazine is in a unique historic position to lead in the re-assertion of wood-based construction-methods in the context of reducing carbon across a range of 'western' working craft.

On the background of extant wooden working craft here and from anywhere around the globe, discussing various opportunities could add to the political legitimacy of the material under progressively growing concerns of 'sustainability (there's a pun in there somewhere).

We are all familiar with recent/current-vintage wooden Lobsterboats, Navy Minesweepers, Whalewatchers, luxury Charterboats etc. More or less aggressive pursuit of further options to use wood as the primary hull-material in the working craft universe should have distinct advantages for designers, builders, over readers and environmentally-minded activists, to would-be operators so far leary of 'plant-matter' in their future.

With WOODENBOAT's reputation and near global availability, this could be a rewarding addition to our discourse, enjoyment, and political relevance of the magazine and this forum. After all, wood has always offered a lot, and might reassert itself again, as other more 'finite' materials go 'stratospheric' costwise and raise concerns about their carbon-footprint.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Wow. I've never spoken to woodenboat guys before. I mean, not like in a group. Most of my 57 years of boats has been alone. So now I see you have chestnuts under your saddles like everybody else.

By the way, I am interested in a twelve metre named Mitena. Number 10. Anyone have any news?

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Well I am glad it's official. Otherwise how would we know that you actually understand your own post? I'm so happy for you dear, and glad that you have a companion in your enlightenment.

Now that you've stated the proposition again (thanks for not changing a word BTW), I don't know how we missed it in the first place, especially since you repeated it two different categories - a clear breach of Forum etiquette, but never mind. How could you know that such behaviour is considered rude?

Speaking for myself alone, (because it's such a hard, hard question to understand) I think I can finally see it. With your permission, I'll restate it: Should there be a separate category on the Forum to discuss the use of wood as a material from which to build commercial watercraft? Is that right?

I agree with Mr. Dillon. NO, there should not be a separate category.

Any one else care to cast their vote as a simple yes or no?

- Norm

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Looking at all the argument above, I cant really see what its about and to be honest I am not in the least bit interested.
I am though very interested in the plight of the indigenous fisheries in the less developed parts of the world, fisheries which have been encouraged to take up "modern" methods of fishing, methods using large, high powered ships which are capital intensive, expensive to run and which require a big catch just to cover the overhead.
The capital required to start up in this "modern" fishing means that control of the fishery ends up with the outsiders who finance the operations, and the guys and gals who nominally own the vessels have to do what they are told rather than using their skill and knowlege to manage a fishery on a sustainable basis. This has in many parts of the world lead to the fishery becoming so depleted as to become unproductive and when that happens the capital moves to the next quick buck leaving the fishing communities and the population dependent upon them for the income and the food, bereft of both.
I see Suzanne as proposing a style of boat that would so reduce the cost of the boats that outside capital would become very much less influential, and as a consequence the locals have much more power in the management of "their" fishery so achieving a much better proportion of the catch sale price as income, and being much better able to manage the fishery in a manner which will ensure its continuing productivity .
All of which is good news for everybody in the long term.

I've been there in a very modest way and done that style of boat , the geographic area for where I designed had a limit of 15 hp without a "licence" and in order to manage the number of large boats working, the "licence" was very expensive. The horsepower limited the boat size, the boat size and speed limited the catch, the capital required for these small boats was low and well within the reach of the villagers, and the fishing industry that has grown from the use of this size boat has become a very important part of the rehabilititation of the village population in the area.
Thats one example, and not neccessarily the only way to achieve it, but we have all of us seen the results of "capital flight" when a long established industry becomes uncompetitive. All of a sudden, using an example that will be close to many of this forums readers there are steel mills, car factories etc being closed down and whole cities economies collapse, while others buy steel from cheaper suppliers and cars from outside suppliers. The real cost to the country in both social and economic terms is incalculable.
We need to look at fisheries worldwide to avoid this sort of thing, and small, low capital and easily replaced fishing vessels are one of the keys to rejuvenating the small towns dependent upon those fisheries.

Lets talk about those, rather than arguing about semantics.

John Welsford

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Another ally in Mr. Welsford. Much appreciated. Even your input though seems to fuel some sort of peculiar response from the likes of Erster et. al.

I propose to just ignore these folks - they've gone so far as to dismiss wood as a plausible hull-material...

Private pools have placed bets on who of these good folks will walk away sulking earliest.

One solitary contribution made to this two-legged Thread by Erster - apparently inadvertendly, judging by his eagerness pointing at it as 'evidence' against my initial proposal - is the reference to the article in Commercial Fisheries News of August '08. Had he done real homework, he'd also have found NATIONAL FISHERMAN of Sept. '04, and November '09; you already know about the latter reference. This is all most serious matter indeed - whether he turns it into mush or not.

Perhaps you could share with me your fisheries-related project privately. Or make it the first 'official' contribution to this Thread as a most coherent endorsement of it - and as a reality-based antidote against the self-indulgences of our more unmotivated friends...

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Susanne is either a think tank or spokesperson for one. People who get that far into their language, as a rule, can only communicate among themselves and believe, the other people,"not in the know", can be manipulated by their"higher understanding"of the situation. Reality has a way of correcting the problem.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

Thinktank ? Nah, more like a 'spittoon'... Just Phil and I working the issue for seven years. Any sensation of 'persecution' by people who disagree with using wood for commercial-craft applications is too unfermented to spend much more time on.

Re: Should this Forum have a dedicated Wooden Working Craft category ?
 

John, not to argue with you on your main point, but it's hardly semantics when posters here, regulars all, have been dismissed by the newcomers as "under-initiated" "termites" who "bleat" their "odd prejudices" and "narrow view points". If Suzanne had simply responded to Peter's direct question "please tell us clearly what it is you want", maybe we could have got somewhere.

Moving on, your concept of low-capital, easily replaced fishing vessels is really the heart of it, IMO. As Erster points out, Suzanne's proposal is 180 degrees from that. Her stance seems to be political, yours seems to be humanitarian.

I've always questioned the wisdom of serving up high-tech systems (like the epoxy/fibreglass Suzanne advocates) as solutions for low-tech problems. To me, the idea of advocating designs based on fibreglass and epoxy in environments where individual survival is at stake is a bit wrong-headed. I suggest that the needs of most of the fisherman you describe could be met with traditional flat-bottom, file-bottom or deadrise skiffs of suitable size for the waters they work in. A skiff can be built from almost anything - plywood in almost any grade, if it's available, locally sawn wood if available, in plank or strip, and even plastic or metal sheet. And if we made 2 kinds of high-tech fasteners available - namely bronze ringnails and cheap construction adhesive - those skiffs can be made safe and relatively durable. FG and epoxy are expensive. Ringnails and polyurethane adhesive are cheap. Skiff designs are free, and building techniques are easily taught, learned and passed on.

If the real need is to help people survive, I think we already have the answers ready to go.

- Norm