Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I feel grateful every time I drive over a concrete bridge.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

It seems the inimicable Susanne has begun referring to Herself in the third person! It really is too bad that "A request to apply advanced psycho-analytical support-services has been denied."

Pity that. Suzy wouldn't last 5 seconds in the Bilge, which is where she belongs. With her imperious attitude and propensity for insults, not to mention dodging every opportunity to actually say anything of substance, she'd fit right in. Too bad she wouldn't last.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

:rolleyes:If only you guys could stop egging her on, both of these threads would quickly sink to the bottom and die the ignominious death that they deserve.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I would propose for those vocal recent/new arrivals who joined in the Group-Hug' around our most flamboyant friends to read through both Threads and then consider the sources of toxicity to a reasonable discussion. Key words would be that "wood is bad for commercial applications - and particularly in winter" (apparently) etc. The record submitted by certain folks is quite stunning in its intensity and insistence.

The frat-row raucus was great fun for some, but did not add any substance to the general point of this Thread. All 'character-defining word-choices' aimed at my address typically come from guys who lost focus early, in public, often, and still repeating. The initial proposition of this Thread is logical enough; and a few sober folks seem to understand it as such. There will be more such folks - while others lay awake at night rolling more spit-balls...

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I'm not impressed with this.

To me, if you (and I'm talking about you, Susanne) want to discuss working craft, then discuss working craft. Post photos and comment. Show us what you've discovered. I'd love to learn more on this topic. If you want to talk about discussing working craft, then keep this up. This is just weird and intense.

If you want to be respected and considered, then be credible, friendly, and expect nothing in return. Whatever it is that you're looking for will find you. I hope that happens for everyone here.

Also ... the duplicate thread ... bad form.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Ah, who said only Bilge had fun threads :D

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/m...et/popcorn.gif

Kaa

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Did we ever find out about the type of plywood or the scarph/butt-block thing for this 70-footer? As a builder, these are the kinds of technical issues I am most interested in. . .but not interested enough to wade back through this thread.

Suzanne, what types, thicknesses and grades of plywood are needed for this size of boat? What methods of joining the panels together is more cost effective than the single weld needed for 36' long panels of aluminum? Answering these questions would help me make up my mind as to how cost effective it would be for my shop to bid on building one for somebody, if it should come up. Right now, we can't compete with aluminum boat builders on a price point basis either in S&G ply/epoxy, cold molded, or certainly in any of the traditional methods. Our best (and only) market for new wooden boats is that tiny segment of the population who is already a wooden boat nut. We do still do quite a few repairs on larger wooden workboats, though.
On site in Homer AK:
http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/14...500x500Q85.jpg

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Good questions !

What are the odds of a productive discussion based on answers ?

I count on McMullen and his ship-wright's steady hand to keep 'the kids' at bay.

This answer only applies to our proposals; others are welcome, necessary and expected as a basis for a solid body of knowledge with which to foster the re-emergence of (renewable) wood-species for serious 4-season commercial applications discussed in a dedicated Commercial Wooden Working-Craft Forum:

a.) Primary structural material is plywood. No scarphing. Butt-joints plus Payson-Joints as far the eye can see. All based on multiple layers of modest thickness domestic/'farm'-grown plywood. Initially fir-ply.

b.) Plus various layers/schedules of glass-cloth, epoxy, closed-cell foam, in a variety of sandwich-options depending upon purpose, location, likely wear, repair & replaceability; all this still pretty carbon-heavy and likely still more non-renewable but applied in modest amounts to significantly enhance the primary material's performance.

c.) Then - well before we cut that last Douglas stick - more and more incorporating regional mixes of woods in the lamination-matrix at the mill. Northeastern woods will offer different opportunities than South-Eastern species would suggest. Our wood-specialists will have a grand time concocting, testing, and then rating mutually each others' best shot at the challenge. Chemists, biologist, geneticists will offer solutions to particular weakness per species, some applied at the mill, others in the seed. A fine time to turn lead into gold or better put 'hohum'-species into prime candiates for at least one or three inner layers...

d.) Commercial 'competitivess' will more and more be defined by the unarguable challenges of sustainability, carbon-footprint, operational safety etc. And some 'modern' materials will drop out early under those 'market-conditions'.

e.) In the Fishing Industry, 'sustainability' will include the fleet's overall operational and regulatory profile as a matter of political relevance to overcome the overreach by major environmental groups currently pushing 'high-carbon' ocean-privatization schemes - with pre '08-type Wall-Street-Scheme investment clubs lurking hungrily.

f.) More and more other commercial applications - such as eco-tourism, RV-type charter fleets etc - will reexamine assumptions casually pushed by our non-renewable-materials syndicates.

g.) Not as the last/least consideration, depending upon your ambitions, this is one solid way to build-in sound durable 'sinking-resistance'.

Check out the sister-Thread under Design.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I dont think that in your countries economy there are answers that will fit all of the above questions at all. But given that in some economies labour is very cheap, solid wood of reasonable quality is also readily available at prices that are very low in comparison to East Coast North America and the combination of the two means that for example the Indonesian and Phillipine Archipelagoes are still being serviced by wooden ships up to about 2000 tons, and the shipbuilding industry, unhampered by OSHA or Emissions regulations builds out in the open just above high tide on the beach.
While I dont condone sweatshop labour or clearfelling forests there are a couple of points I'd make. Without those jobs most of those people would have no jobs at all, and neither would the people or whole townships dependent upon that work. If they havn't got work, they'll find some way to live thats true, but it may be that you wont like what they do choose from the limited options that would be available.
Also, if the wood from the forests could not be sold, the forest will have no value so the fires would be set and within a couple of years you'd have either cattle or palm oil instead, both of which generate an income. Like I said, they will find a way to live.
But the large section solid wood that this style of building is dependent upon is increasingly being sucked up by processors in developed countries, and the traditional shipyards are having to compete pricewise with companies selling into rich markets willing to pay high for fancy furniture made from exotic woods from far away, and some of these centuries old shipbuilding towns are gradually coming apart for lack of ability to compete, not so much with other building methods but with other purchasers of their main material. So whats taking the place of the ships not being built? Steel, usually cruddy old second, third, fourth etc hand coastal barge type freighters and ferries from China or thereabouts.
They are many of them manifestly unsuited to the areas in which they are being used and there are many lives lost every year as they are capsized or otherwise sunk. ( Tonga a couple of months back is a very recent one and I heard of 1200 people lost in a capsize in the Phillipines yesterday)
Is there a possible wooden boat solution to this? I think so, but it lies in many small operators with relatively small craft rather than in 100plus footers, and I think that it lies in renewable plantation forestry based products rather than old growth high grade lumber.
These forests give a reasonably quick financial return, provide employment throughout their full cycle and in tropical or subtropical areas with good rainfall an area as small as 25,000 acres will keep a plywood mill producing 100 tons a day of finished plywood or LVL going forever as well as producing a similar volume of paper or MDF panel and a good volume of fingerjointed paint grade construction lumber. Using modern energy recovery methods that mill could also be a nett contributor to the grid in terms of electricity. All existing techology including the forestry management and tree hybridising. All part of a possible alternative solution to a problem.

John Welsford.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

And we bounce back and forth between the Threads. Seems actually defensible this two-track approach as we might capture different sources of input for this initial sounding out of perspectives. Not too much patience required anyway; who is not peeking over the 'fence' every once in a while...

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Don't enlist me to do your dirty work! Those "kids", as you've pretentiously called them, had some legitimate questions that you mostly shrugged off or evaded. There's an awful lot of knowledge on this forum, both broad and deep, that you really shouldn't just airily dismiss. Even though I've already built 53 boats (and counting) myself, I still learn something new here pretty much every week.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Where to start with yet another litany of make-believe ill feelings - after (again) "airily" not responding substantively to lengthy posts on a serious question; both Welsford's and my contribution for instance go unresponded to. It is just plain repeated incomprehension that accounts for this ? Read it again then...
I get it now. Are these posts simply too long, too much to read, with too much substance to digest, and then think about ?


Experience is a good thing. But
- hard to fathom though with folks who seem compelled to use multiple names to operate under;

- hard to believe an awful lot of in terms of their 'expertise', if so deeply set against the virtues of wood as anything useful for applications other than fair-seasons pleasure-craft and indoor furniture;

- hard to take seriously if (presumed) practitioners of working with wood constantly argue against enhancing commercial and political opportunities potentially supporting their own line of work;

- hard to remotely recognize under these accumulating layers of out-of-focus 'drive-by' episodes - typically to a scratchy soundtrack of cackling - on a subject matter as serious as this for the WB-forum in general, certain industrial applications, and wood's inherent political value as a renewable and thus sustainable resource at the hard of this community and WB's commercial aspirations.


What's the matter with you guys ? What is this thin-skinned endless frustration all about ?

Oh, dear, is it the dreaded 'it-never-occurred-to-us'/'not-invented-here' syndrome ??
That may well be it.
It is indeed easier to study one handbook and then repeat other peoples' laborious development of wood-using techniques, than to help write a chapter or two in a new manual for a promising wooden working craft construction approach. That would also explain why no other construction approaches have been suggested by those folks...

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Track both Threads.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I'm voting for Susanne as being Dutch.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Nope, djerman, mein Freund.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

The action seems to be 'over there' (Design...) for the moment. But more importantly, enjoy the feast today.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Susanne, do everyone a favor. Kill one of the threads.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

And throw out which perspectives ?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

For some "The Word Is Not Enough" :D
Suzanne, it start to be re-heated left over.
Cheers
Daniel

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

That was quite cryptic in both grammar and word-choice. Or perhaps just subtle...

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

007 James Bond :D
It was the title of a movie
I know it was subtle. Very cryptic. :rolleyes:

Cheers
Daniel

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I feel better now. Now about those reheated left-overs...?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Sorry Suzanne, you have to guess on this one, I can't divulges all my "cryptics"
Your call. I am sure you will find the relation. If not, try harder.
Cheers
Daniel

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

'Try harder' sure is the theme for many in this Thread.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Hi, Interesting thread, lots of arguments. I would love nothing more than to go back to the age of sail and wooden boats.
Sustainability is a good word, there a 6 billion people on this planet, there will be 12 by the time most of us die. Arguing about keels and plywood and tonnage is like giving a dying patient kemo to give him 1 week more to live.
These masses of people are not going to stop until the last tree is cut down and the last fish is caught and we will be eating pond scum and drinking toilet water.
On the brighter side, it's nice to get a day off.
John

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Deep meaning in there somewhere, likely blurred by the speed of this drive-by.. Still, where's the 'beef' ?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

You are not that off. Slightly in the dark side, but can happens.
Cheers
Daniel

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Having said that, now what?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Having initiated this Thread, I have certain obligations at 'house-keeping'. So I'll push the REFRESH button, not by restating the initial proposition; that is easy enough to find. But to priefly focus on the opportunities of these two sister-Threads I'll enter this note I placed under "Designs...":

"
In light of our experience with WB over the decades and the most relevant standing of this institution in print and online, the underlying expectations for launching these two Sister-Threads were
- sober consideration of ideas put on the table,
- calm reflection,
- private or group-based explorations of the ins- and the outs of the matter,
- respectful criticism of 'knots' in the thoughts if and when really necessary,
- creative additions to the discourse,
- progressive accumulation of an increasingly sophisticated body of concepts of all related types - from materials issue to re-developmental policies,
- continuously updated in perpetuity by insights and discoveries due to an ever-growing sensibility/'literacy' to and on them.

And there was/is exactly such a response-pattern emerging from what is so far a minority with sensibilities to the issues and serious additions to the discussion.

And then there are those, 'well-known' (mostly by-each-other...) personalities flying under whatever monniker at a time, who chose to indulge in these remarkably flamboyant displays of disruptive silliness, in conjunction with hyper-cyclic fits of sulking (and worse). The recurring hazing impulses which apparently are deeply part of 'their culture' are old phenomena, however disturbing to the unwarped eye.

Phil knew that sub-species from prep-school with a fairly ugly set of memories inflicted upon him. As he put it: "One-on-one they can be quite stimulating and possibly even decent friends. But as a group - particularly when in a mutually-intoxicating hord-mentality - , they are unpleasant, over uncivilized to occasionally outright dangerous."

And some of them know their predicament.
Consider the case of 'Ledger' or whatever label preferred when and where:
- What did he contribute to this Thread overrall ?
- Any advances offered ?
- Any indication of serious contemplation ?
- He suggests a background in cabinet-making - I use and admire mine everyday - and yet while precision and skill is paramount in this line of work, here he just lets loose with belly-thoughts and weird careening all over the place...
- Perhaps the 'group-syndrome' referred to above may somewhat exculpate some of the sins.
- And he know he's 'done ill', as suggested by his sudden initiation of revising his current public persona by starting his own Thread on Wooden Working Craft around the world. Pretty pictures, some data, and so far at least without 'cackling' fits.
- That Thread is a good thing on it own terms; can't be first one though.
- And his action suggests quiet admiration of my Threads as he has apparently begun to reconsider his earlier course of impulses.
- His Thread strongly supports the need for a dedicated Wooden Working Watercraft Forum.

We all make mistakes.

As for the 'rest of them' - we'll see.
No hope for 'Erster the fisher' it seems...

The odd thing though remains, why they would want to enter this Thread at all, if, on this most public record, they are this aggressively unwilling to contribute substance. There are a lot of Threads in this Online format in which I'll never open my mouth because I've got not much if anything to add. 'Our groups' urgent need to be 'square-pants'- disruptive remains an ugly, and on a personal level - once you figure out who they are - somewhat disturbing mystery.
And that is without going into some of their 'private' messages sent through WB and generic Internet to this well-known address... "

On we go with the Thread-enhancing contributions by our constructive friends...