Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Channeling Spiro Agnew, Dave? :D

From everything I've seen in Post-Apocalyptic movies, there's going to be a lot of free tires. Tires everywhere for the taking. I know tires aren't very green, but if they're just lying around, then the harm's already been done, so you might as well use them, right? I'm thinking some kind of geodesic tire structure, kind of a Buckminster Fuller meets A Boy and His Dog, thing.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susanne@PB&F (Post 2384833) On Erster's excited "kids gloves" note: Being 1900 pro bono hours in the hole, it will be long before we'd break even...

Wait a minute here. You are expecting to get a return on your investment? Nah, you did't really mean to say that now did you? ;) This is all about the plight of the commercial watermen or so you have stated all along, correct and lobbying on their behalf? You do realize that you are in the boating business right?:D But anyway, folks thats in your simular capacity normally has a business plan to recoup your investment in the form of time. So there must be some incentive, i.e. monetary return. What you are asking then is a forum to promote your venture.

Quote:

Dedicated category in this forum for working watercraft.

A while back there was a thread also dedicated entirely addressing the notion that all designers could express and post their doodlings to create some chatter and this was shot down.

What you are doing is using the working watermen to promote your own ideas and thats about it. I personally know of no one at this time that works fulltime on the water catching seafood for resale to the general public venturing into the board and asking about new and eco friendly boats to work on the water. At least we have cleared that up.. Now back to your regular programming.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Yep, I was channelling old Spiro; he's just about forgotten now. "A Boy and his Dog," I remember having a good laugh at that pre "Miami Vice" sci fi. piece. Don Johnson was good to his dog in the end!

But seriously, you didn't fully understand the capabilities of a certain plywood boat in ice. That 1/4" plywood forefoot blister is sacrificial. You can pound the damn thing off and continue merrily on your way.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

So now its a fourumvirate or something. The collected wisdom will melt that server after all. Cute tit for tat by Erster; but no lolly-pop yet.

I can see how this emerging support-group works:
Rule #1 - Wooden Commercial Craft are inconceivable, implausible, 'the devil's work'. Anyway - we are right; let's hold hands.

Rule #2 - The more publicly we can display our (seemingly growing) prejudices against the known evils of wood in general and in winter in particular, the better. Anyway - we are right; let's hold hands.

Rule #3 - The sooner - as self-certificated Kibbizers - we can cackle over design-attributes we don't find in our museum-guide, the sooner we'll brim with accomplishment. Anyway - we are right; let's hold hands.

(Incoming comment from the bleachers: "Hey fellas - isn't it usually fellas -the longer you hold each others hands, the sooner you sense through yer palms what y'all are thinking before you know that you're thinking..." O.k. enough with the perky bleacher crowd).

As I was elucidating - before I got interupted - here is Rule #4...

Sorry, I've been instructed not to reveal the remaining canon of the brotherhood as that would really give colic to their pit-bull. Got to be kind to pit-bulls...

Wait, what do I hear through my ear-piece, they prefer WHAT ? REPEAT THAT!

I'm afraid it has been confirmed that in this Group, 'one' perfers silky-haired pink&mauve Austrian Meadow Schniedlers for their submissive, cuddly, lap-prop profile. Rumor has it that holding a Schniedler's paw enhances the spirital 'Anyway - we are right' experience of the Group. Unless you get one of those psychotic Schniedlers whose palm you sure do not want to read. That might account for the crankiness of some of them good folks... Poor souls, nutty warped dog's phantasies implanted - perhaps for good !? Through the palm/paw no less...
Let's all show deep sympathy!

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

In terms of ice-performance of wooden hulls, we can consult a variety of well-reputed texts ... or just look at the harbor in winter watching wooden boats go to work if it's not to iffy ...and as we examine the objects of interest ... we shall most likely note through alert eyes and our active minds ... how a broad variety of proven measures may be fine candidates ... to address this issue in earnest and in reasonable expectation of plausible success ... whether it is December ice or February ice ... in sunlight or in nightly darkness... as long as we respect the challenge and expect to learn much good knowledge in our determined addressing of it... applying sound concentration, searching for engaged imagination... all on the quest of experiencing and sharing rare insights ... perhaps lost to some but not others ... the young and the old... the fishers and all the sisters and brethren of water-borne commerce.... and at times daring...

THE GUYS DID WHAT TO THE Schniedler ?

Well, you can't say I did not warn you about that nutty canine.

Where was I...

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Suzanne, it's only through the pro-bono work of certain 'kibbitzers" that this thread has stayed afloat for as long as it has. You should show some gratitude for the help you're receiving keeping this sinker afloat.

You show little desire to answer any questions about your boats or their construction, which doesn't get you very far on a Forum filled with people interested in actual boats or their construction, many who have built Bolger designs. Any attempt to engage you that level is met with dismissal, ridicule and name calling. You shouldn't be surprised if we respond as we do.

Here's an easy question. What kind of plywood are you advocating (is that the right word?) for use in building these boats?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

A new twist - well make that 2-degrees perhaps. The instructions-memo made it around the Group in no time and forth came this approach. What kind of plywood would we be using...? That'll need real headscratching - no doubt.

And give that man a medal - no, Erster, no, not that old hairy lollypop from last time. You kept it where ?? Too nast by half, if I may say so myself.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

So, do you glass outside of the boats heavily for ice or not? You're reply was somewhat lacking in specifics..

Copper, oak iceboards? I once worked on a boat that had thick rubber tacked around the waterline. It was supposed to have been the same stuff that gets used in hockey rinks. I don't know if it was true, but it seemed to work.

Are there well known texts that cover the problem? Am I missing some solution. Is there something new out there?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

It's just something that we never get tired of debating around here.

You can't just say plywood and expect to leave it at that. This isn't the Green Forum you know.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Focus, focus, focus. Honesty, honesty, honesty please!

Your published obsession is large, light, plywood, foam, glass and epoxy commercial fishing vessels.

Please don't try to backpeddle to the general category of all wooden boats as you continue your personal harangues.

We have many, many, large WOOD commercial fishing vessels here in the Northwest. They have thick WOOD planking. Heavy, closely spaced frames. Heavy WOOD bulwarks, and thick WOOD rail caps.

No one here knocked those boats.

Those are not the boats of your obsession, and not the boats under discussion, so please don't seek dishonest refuge in them.

Interestingly, we can find lots of these good old wood hulls that have been modified by their owners to have all aluminum decks, bulwarks and houses on the old hull. Often the aluminum topsides have been added after disheartening deck mods with cheap plywood.

So let's keep honest focus on your obsession with lightweight, plywood, foam, epoxy/glass coated commercial fishing vessels of 70 feet or more.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

No person interested in swapping ideas to gain imput on a targeted topic will dodge, and deflect from the replies and requests for genuine feedback. I do not feel that if in fact Suzanne represents the Bolger company that she is doing justice for a long established business that has helped a lot of people get on the water. Its almost as if we have been trolled.

This was fun for a bit but someone needs to redirect her in another avenue that would teach her how to truely win friends and influence the world. One thing for sure, the working watermen and all the so called lobbying does not help her cause if she presents herself in the same manner as we have witnessed here. Over and out, as I am now passing the torch to quite possibly the wackiest member now to date.:D.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

That was well expressed and right on target Mike.

I tried honestly complimenting Bolger boats, the Bolger good name and it's universal recognition; the appeal of simplicity, low cost, and plywood in pleasure craft. I genuinely like the concepts. I like the possibilities of the 30 foot plywood Robin Jean as a home built pleasure craft. (6th time I've said that now)

Apparently I made the mistake of questioning the suitability, durability and maintainability of large, lightweight, plywood and foam commercial fishing vessels.

Any compliments were thrown back in my face because I didn't genuflect to her total vision and obsession. I deleted a stack of posts because this thread was becomiing ridiculous.

How do you handle an ideologue? When reason doesn't work, I try ridicule. Ridicule doesn't make me feel any better though. I'll try to stay off this thread. Probably some more deletes are in order.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

This message has been deleted by Canoeyawl.

You didn't have to delete that one Canoeyawl. It provided a whole new direction:

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...InnerTubes.jpg

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Raw Faith has a fleet of these for lifeboats.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

So, who is scratching whose chin to stimulate those sage remarks ? And notice how you guys gloss over what happened to your Schniedler...

One watches in anticipation what will be the next topic of deeply-considered concerns. You are now down to 'inflatables'. I reckon ERSTER may be first out the door with his personal experience on that one as well...

Having known Phil personally for over 18 years and share love, life and work for 15 years, I am glad to have experienced the exact polar opposite of the spectacle some folks giddily display in a family-rated forum. This man of 1927 vintage approached me to join our life and work in a union completely utterly free from these peculiar dashes into dead-end fits and compounding silliness. We got a lot done that way.

So to continue our work I'll be off to work again, while my certain 'special friends' in this Thread go ever deeper down the rabbit-hole of mutual chin-stroking, 'Schniedler' stuff I really don't want to know of, and the apparently irresistable joys of matters inflatable.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

So, I suppose this means that you won't be elaborating on the type of plywood you recommend for the boats?

It might also have been interesting to explore the plywood scarf vs. butt block question and find out your opinion on that one.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

With all those splinters around your keyboard, have you already punctured your toy ? -boat ?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

To focus - re-set -our discussion in this Thread in re-submit for your consideration:

Posted first under 'Design', repeated here to not 'lose' anybody:

To state the obvious, wood is pretty much the only material we can predictably grow more of in a broad range of species for a broad range of applications on the hull.

Focussing on wooden working craft under a dedicated category would allow concentrating on the inherent 'sustainability' of the material and the 'lower-carbon' nature of such craft.

WOODENBOAT magazine is in a unique historic position to lead in the re-assertion of wood-based construction-methods in the context of reducing carbon across a range of 'western' working craft.

On the background of extant wooden working craft here and from anywhere around the globe, discussing various opportunities could add to the political legitimacy of the material under progressively growing concerns of 'sustainability (there's a pun in there somewhere).

We are all familiar with recent/current-vintage wooden Lobsterboats, Navy Minesweepers, Whalewatchers, luxury Charterboats etc. More or less aggressive pursuit of further options to use wood as the primary hull-material in the working craft universe should have distinct advantages for designers, builders, over readers and environmentally-minded activists, to would-be operators so far leary of 'plant-matter' in their future.

With WOODENBOAT's reputation and near global availability, this could be a rewarding addition to our discourse, enjoyment, and political relevance of the magazine and this forum. After all, wood has always offered a lot, and might reassert itself again, as other more 'finite' materials go 'stratospheric' costwise and raise concerns about their carbon-footprint.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Woodenboat has a sister publication, "Professional Boatbuilder". If they have a forum you may have more luck to pursuing your topic there or on an online forum for commercial fishermen. There just aren't too many of them who visit here, or seem interested in or aware of this thread. Perhaps a letter to the editors of various targeted publications may elicit the types of responses that you seek. I for one would like to see links showing technical, political and economics-based responses to letters you might write.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Would it not be easier to simply start a thread in the section Design / Plans and see how it develops?
Simply ask the posters to behave in a constructive manner and not post in the thread if they only want to bash others well intended ideas.
The topic of green boat building interests me and I am sure I am not the only one. This thread however is going nowhere and has only been amusing for the way people try to slash each other.
Oh, whats a Schniedler btw?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Can I ask you guys why you are giving this Suzanne person the time you are? Is it just for the fun of watching her spark off another insult with every post? She is clearly more interested in creating a pulpit for her ideas than in having a serious discussion. She hasn't provided a straight answer to a single question, and I've heard more insults hurled here than in any above-the-waterline thread in recent memory. I said it right off the top and I'll say it again, doesn't this kind of crap belong in the bilge?

Suzanne, can you not just answer Jim's questions about the type of plywood and construction methods you are advocating with some simple plain-English answers, and without the dismissive attitude and personal attacks? You don't seem to realize that you are speaking to some real boatbuilders with real experience out there on the actual water. Some respect would be good.

- Norm

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I'm not giving her a hard time, I would be happy to see the content that she is promoting. I just don't understand why the current sections aren't suitable for discussions about wooden working craft.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

With all due respect - respect is a two-way street.
Susanne shouldn't have to qualify her request by answering random questions about boat construction. Especially after getting kicked around.
It's too bad so few posted opinions on the topic as stated.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Over the course of the time I have visited this site there has been some mighty nice designers that have shared their knowledge freely. These guys, some still posting to date has had their work removed numerous times even when using a drawing as an example in a response. I have never read in their replies such condesending remarks in reply as we have witnessed in the two threads thats going now on this topic. So I took a few moments while in doors awaiting for the ugly weather to break to stand up for the guys in a way. There is no need for a new section. All anyone needs to do if they wish to talk about a certain boat, and in this case, a simple thread titled "Working watercraft in wood" Afterall this is a wooden boat forum anyway, plywood included too.;) There are surely people here that have no problem discussing all forms of boats that are seasoned in designs and may also be able to add some imput if it was truely about boat designs. We know how the seasoned guys reply and it ain't nuttin like we have witnessed either.



Its kinda hard to talk about boats and a particular construction method if the originator is unwilling to participate. for sure its a too way street. One thing is for sure, we don't need no politicans involved either, also part of the request that we get involved with them on this issue.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I agree with Bill, err - Erster...

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

there was /is a company i heard of in holland who built the centreline structure first ,the the plywood interior, then the hull & deck,
its a great way to build as one of the most time consuming things in trad building is walking up to the deck, down into the boat repeatedly,
let alone the spiling each piece etc
so it saves a lot of time, as does any plywood construction,
yes, workboats can be built much quicker with ply
but i'm not really qualified to comment specifically, as i have not built a big boat in ply,
but its fast & unlike epoxy its not unpleasant to work with

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Could someone please enlighten a poor confused outlander what barrow Susanne is pushing here. Yes you are Susanne. You started this thread, you must have an agenda of some sort. What exactly is PB&F? I Googled it & got no definitive answer. And why is everyone taking this so personally? Is this like mining on the Coromandel? Or the use of 1080 to control possums? Politically charged issues with people in entrenched positions hurling insults at each other. About boats?????? Please......

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I didn't say 'hard time". ;) I wondered why you guys are wasting any time with her?

- Norm

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

The questions are hardly random. This thread is in the 'Building and Repair" zone, after all, and she is stating categorically that she has more knowledge on the subject, or at least a more informed opinion (to put it mildly), than every other member of the Forum who has raised his or her head.

And I've seen more insults than I have opinions, and sorry, but they have all flowed from her.

- Norm

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

thanks erster, i hadnt seen that,
ply is not stiffer than metal
but its a good idea to build these boats, there cheaper & faster to build

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Ahh. The rape & pillage of the oceans. It's much more eco-friendly if we do it in wooden boats. Right.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I think we should run the engines on whale oil... it's a renewable resource....we could refuel at sea... all we would need is a harpoon..

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

LOL. Now you're in serious trouble, Dude. We're not allowed to joke about serious stuff, doncha know.:D

- Norm

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

That's a good one, Norm. :D Especially coming as it does, from someone who must have just spent an hour penning that deconstruction scrollathon over on the other thread.:D:D:D

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I think this is a great idea. I'm sure some clever boffin could invent a machine. Insert whale here, extract biofuel there.

Problem is, whales are getting a little hard to find.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Well Jim, that's what I like about me ;) - I'm full of fascinating inconsistencies. Or something like that :D:D

- Norm

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Well, its been done -lol- without engines.
http://www.picton-castle.com/_images...under_sail.jpg

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I think I can speak for all sensible folks when I announce, after much consideration, that radclyffe, Nauvoo, and Susanne @PB&F get my vote for seeing the opportunities inherent in the initial proposal of this Thread. So there it is.

The award for most (unintended) levity delivered goes to...well there are only two clearly leading candidates - and those folks are a pinch sensitive. So out of respect, we'll put their names into bubbles over our heads and keep them private, thusly.

I just came across an intriguing tid-bit. This fella Phil Bolger designed a 450-tons (as in 1,000,000+pounds displacement) 24-gun three-masted frigate replica. Was build and launched !! Good Grief ! Sounds like a working craft to me. 41+ years now doing her thang...

But hey, if it is a 'replica', that would mean they did this work for real, as in on purpose ages ago ?? Like 200, 400 years ago - a thousand years ago. Gosh. Good thing, our sober/'realistic' 'critics' weren't around then telling them how silly it is to use wood and all...

Well 200-years later now, our friends at last have a chance to reveal to the world the error of its ways, thinking that wood was ever even remotely a plausible option at all, well it's 'vegetable matter' - ain't it ! So now, by late 2009, in a most public forum, stored on hard-drives, for all to respectfully admire, they get to say that wood is only for pleasure-purposes, such as rocking chairs, rocking horses, cribs, punts, yachts, prim-rose planters - but never working-craft, ever.

O.K. Now that that deeply felt urge has been hurled out of the orbit leaving the Solar System as we speak to surprise alien cultures in galaxies far far away, we might get back to a sober discussion of the initial proposition. I should report that the secret (yes !) vote has been to not repeat it for a third time because of a few stragglers out there misunderstanding the format and purpose of the Thread.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

A request to apply advanced psycho-analytical support-services has been denied. The use, quantity, type etc. of various 'faces' per message will not be officially investigated. On the other hand, it is recommended to consider 'Gold-Stars' imprinted on Chocolate-Ducats as special rewards for those enjoying those colorful round faces ever so much.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

OK, that's it guys, she doesn't approve of smiley faces, so lay off. And apparently humour is of questionable value in polite conversation, so lay off that too. Oh, and having your own opinion? Forget that. Are you nuts or something? Now, be good and maybe Mistress Suzanne will give us some Chocolate Ducats. I like Chocolate Ducats.

And BTW, my answer to the proposition is still NO (seriously).

- Norm