Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

If there's to be a change in the forum line-up I'd like to see the Bilge deleted from the 'New Posts' feature, or only be accessible on a page that could be bookmarked by those who prefer to post there. Anybody else for that?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Oh, so now it's Mr. Ledger, is it.

Did he publish any designs for inboard powered tonging garveys? There was a notable lack of printed material, I recall. Simplified Boatbuilding was my bible back then, and a fine source it was, too.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I suggest a Craigslist and Ebay Category. ;)

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

That's an excellent idea.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

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Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Well said, Dave (sage nods all around).

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Well, with now public explicit agreement between (sage) Messrs. Wright&Ledger, you are confirming my earlier arguments about the vector in perspective of that particular mindset - oddly WOODENBOAT-injurious.

If you are hooked on the 'Handyman Special' language, there is little to help you with - beyond repeating earlier posts.

What is impressive in its urgent daring is your public insistence that man-hours-reducing design-approaches are deemed undesirable, as inherently 'unmarketable' - a very personal/'special' version of 'Realism' (again). It is the Intellectual Gated-Community Model of 'royal oak knees' etc. after all...

You two folks are not exactly what WOODENBOAT and all its friends really need to remain economically prosperous by addressing needs and opportunities emerging out of forever changing times.

I suggest that you venture forth - henceforth (!) - and advance your petition redressing your grievances by fervently appealing to the editors to reject all advertising from builders that dare to build in this age, for this age, using thinking borne of this age.

To the other readers:
Is there anything I misunderstand in their position that designing, building, using, discussing affordable advanced wooden working craft in the 21st century is undesirable since deemed by W&L to be economically unviable ??

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Usually if the Forum owners (or at the request of other forum members) find a thread to be particularly interesting, noteworthy or one they wish to keep in front of Forum members eyes they will label it with a 'sticky'. Thus it will appear for some period of time at the top of the forum page.

It hasn't happened with this suggested topic and after 900+ views it doesn't seem likely to.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Wright's perspective may require a big and sturdy skeg for conceptual steadiness.

RBGarr's comment suggests to me to get through these 'stages' of initial intellectual compass-correction on the part of the contrarians to arrive at a productive and broadening discussion not just of the proposal for a new category but the core of the subject Wooden Commercial Craft. It may well be that from the designer's perspective, this looks all too much like a 'no-brainer' in the context of the broader economic and ecological arguments stated by me.

Ergo, I'd like to see this Thread continuing to simply 'popularize' the subject matter in general. It will be 'fertilized' over time with the growing trickle of wooden working craft as one response to combined economic and ecological challenges.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Oh dear, where to begin.

First sentence is a non-starter from any perspective.

- 1900 hrs.
- 40 fishers signed on.
- Plus our Mayor.
- New England's Conservation Law Foundation.
- A local 'pillar-of-the-community-banker.
- The 'official' you cite was a local public 'leader' in Phil's life-long home-town who asked us flat out "what's in it for me" - as in pizze... well after Phil had been designing for local fishers of any tribe,including the "Acme" for Capt. Cusumano; apart from his innocence as to who Phil Bolger was, he never got the point of the proposals for the viability of the Port and political advantages for the fleet, and indeed is known for the personal touch expressed on that occasion.

Picking selected misrepresented tidbits, peppered with fulsome 'friendliness' toward Phils and 'the cause' and then join Ledger in 'sound' dismissals of a proposal you've barely understood is an intriguing spectacle. There is nothing "rational" about this approach. Pretty toxic actually for anyone interested in understanding the vital importance of a viable working waterfront - based in part on wooden craft for the 21st century.

You two want to keep insisting that you just can't picture any reality behind our pursuits in support of the Working Waterfront by including sustainable hull-materials. Is not this the WOODENBOAT FORUM - rather than the off-off-midway mad-mirrors fun-house of half-cocked spit-balling on serious work, serious local economies, and its relevance for WOODENBOAT ?

You good folks would have laughed at our 2006-7 proposal of a 31x7'8 hull to be buildable by novices to then be taken offshore to go work. Now that that (for you two clearly) 'inconceivable' reality has been established in 3-D by 2008-9 - and nationally covered in print - you are telling the world, these magazines' editors and - oh yes - the fishers on that craft (!) how unsuitable in your personal judgment the whole idea is... Gotta love that 'realism'!

Well. That's why we do the designing, attracting of a few who find the material useful for their own purposes.

And you do the grand dismissing of a matter that you do not want to 'bone up on' for serious disputations-sake nor seem to find any capacity to contextualize in the challenges of working waterfronts in this day and part of the world:
- Without viable working fleets under $5/gal realities supporting the local infrastructure, where do you think you'll do any work on your boat ?
- Where will you find any boat-builders ?
- DIY Storage-Yards ??
Alright, I know that will be (again!) too much to take in...

Can't wait for another contribution of that brand of 'sage realism'...

Nobody speaks of 'revolutionizing' anything, only to demonstrate options. You don't want even discuss them in a serious forum...

Still no response to the 40', 50', 70' studies to show the thrust of the developments.

And (predictably ?) no response to my earlier question:
Is there anything I misunderstand in your position that designing, building, using, discussing affordable advanced wooden working craft in the 21st century is undesirable since deemed by W&L to be 'economically unviable' ??

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

The PB stands for Pit Bull, right?

Leggo my ankle fore I have to put you on "Ignore".:D

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Other than the people who kill your food for you.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

No stats,but 90% of the fishing boats here,under 65', are at least 90% wood, not counting the crew.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Don't you start in with me, SB. The line you quoted was said in jest, a little joke with a ring of truth. How was I to know that the Distinguished Poster was totally lacking in humor.:rolleyes:

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

We don't see many large wooden craft of any description around here anymore. Haven't for years now. I'll take your word about the situation in Newfoundland but what I wrote holds true for large portions of the East Coast.

Even so, the statements weren't provocative or unreasonable and should never have elicited the reaction that they did, and continue to do.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Hold on there,just throwing my 2cents worth in. I get a laugh out of things like "political relevance and carbon footprint". I forgot the smiley face,but I think we should give the poster the information requested,same as if asked" what type of glue would you use?"

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Susanne, you've spent a lot of time reading books? If you spent a little time in the school of hard knocks, you might understand, more information is gathered by asking, than trying to bully.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

S B,
enough "hard knocks" to be less indulgent with yet another reflexive trashing/ridicule of sober long-developed proposals apparently 'unthought-of' by some. To see the casual categorization of certain ideas and indeed design- and construction-practices as 'unrealistic', reminds me of the 'intellectual' atmosphere of various online fora based on 'man-made-only' materials that laugh at 'vegetable matter'(wood) - all based on yet another set of so-called 'sound rational foundations' or just plain 'realism'. Same impulses - equally hard to rationalize.

Wright & Ledger would be a pinch higher on the Learning Curve, if they'd had serious conversations with senior fishing folks expressing the ambitions to retire with the most advanced 'green' and, yes S B, low-carbon footprint commercial fishing craft. From personal ambitions as life-long/serious Fishers to defining the future of the industry and thus port-communities through regulatory proceedings, these concepts do indeed matter politically and legally - be it in Federal District Courts or the court of public opinion. Certain fishing-regulatory realities sure have shaped working waterfronts in your part of this continent.

As you noticed , S B, the gents are apparently unwilling to deal with the questions posed - in an explicit discussion-forum yet another form of 'mature realism' no doubt ?!

Instead, various seemingly uncontrollable urges to render (yet more !) judgments as to (now) personal characteristica as well, reflects a level of progress on yet another Learning Curve that would seem painfully lacking. Phil Bolger and I thrived on these exchanges - whoever initiated them - as we saw the inherent opportunities in pushing these arguments further and further, always controlled by the hard realities of Physics, Budgets, Ergonomics, Regulation, Ecology etc.; he asked me to join him in life and work in part because of several years of such exchanges. And he'd never have dreamt of lazily assigning 'inferior' personal characteristics because the questions on the table is deemed too challenging. He had no patience with such Drive-By Spit-Balling.

As you point out S B, there are a lot of places that do indeed use and rely on WOOD as the primary; they might even think of tending to the growth of the stuff... And yet, in this WOODENBOAT FORUM Messrs Ledger&Wright quickly get thin-skinned when it is seriously proposed to re-emphasize certain unmatched advantage of the material for certain commercial applications in this day and age...

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Re Wright's 'Skeg': Focus, man, focus on this proposal for a dedicated Thread about Wooden Commercial Craft...

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

LOL! Working Watercraft and politicans does not go in the same sentence. Pushing an arguement? To be sure thats a favorite MO around this joint. Courts? You truely need to leave your comfortable surroundings typing on this forum and venture out and stand with the actual working watermen as the politicans and planning boards coupled with the supposed protectors of the fisheries also render the watermen to the roles of the unemployed after generations of providing for their families from the results of their dangerous day and night jobs away from them.

Stand with the working watermen to prevent yearly increases of "fees" which continues to make it impossible to even pay expenses because of the decreases in quotas. Stand with these guys when fighting to get china and the far east farm raised crap off the streets and out of the local chain stores. Stand with the working watermen when they continue to fight for their dock space when politicans grab the land for a huge high rises.

When was the last time you actually stood along side of a guy in bibs in support of their right to work the waters? The only thing that I take from your axe grinding here is that you want fancy old time wooden boats sitting at museum docks so that you can take photos of the sun shinning through the rigging to sell prints to the unsuspecting tourists to hang on their walls at home, a favorite cause for the so called concerned advocate in the 21st century.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Yoh Erster, easy there, read the whole Thread.
No orthodox romanticism on my end. But you got to counter the 'green' over-reach with language and deeds that strengthen your position. And prepare you perhaps for $5/gal.

To Repeat: 40 local fishers signed on...yes they know us! Especially me....

And we've been out watching gill-netting for instance - and turned green from video-taping the action on a madly rolling boat.

I stood among 250 fishers from all over the North East at the NMFS NERO demonstration 10/30, actually first to be there.
Were you there ??

Testified together in February and April before NEFMC in Portsmouth and Mystic. Again were you there ?

Today is another meeting... will you be there ?

What are your plans to cope with the challenges ??

P.S. Who's 'Bill' ?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Poof! Your wish has been granted madam. If others will use the delete function you will have this thread entirely to yourself.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Please forgive me for asking as I may have missed it. But what group do your represent? You must have some title thats attached to your time away from your day job, yes, no? Or is this a retirement gig? TIA

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Big money and the endless hunger for lots of it, is what controls whatever gets done.Emerging third world countries entice Big money on how best to get more of it.Big money could care less about carbon foot print,sustainability,the unemployed or any other "cause".....unless there is more money still to be made there. Big money does not recognize borders or local traditions/customs,it only recognizes means to secure more money.Big money drives governments.Big money will eat its' young, if it needs to and then will write articles about the terrible loss of its' young for Newsweek ,National Geographic etc,etc....

Small money will read these articles, feel a twinge, begin laying out a plan to change things, gather signatures,make sacrifices ,get interviewed and feel righteous and on the verge of great change.

Big money will order another round of caviare and chuckle at the latest small money show.



Cheers!

Peter, the cynic

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Xs two, been dealing with these "educators" for the good of the commercial industry for a very long time , working closely with the NMFS.:rolleyes:

Loggers also in their own right deal with their own set of "educators" too , here in the states. Advocacy group, PB&J?

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Erster,
this is the office of Phil Bolger & Friends, Inc. Boatdesigners.

Since summer of 2002 (pre Amendment 13 here in the North-East) we got alarmed as to the direction the industry was taking. We were concerned in particular about the continued indifference towards vessel-economics and vessel-safety in the large-scope discussions by regulators, eco-groups, and industry-leadership.

We noticed that Federal Code had kept the industry from evolving naturally towards greater vessel-economics; a rather rare situation amongst the industries of transportation and resource-extraction. We knew of no other industry where regs could completely stifle any adaptation to increasing energy-cost while equally increasing restructions on the allowed catch would drastically reduce income and port-viability further.

Since we know how to go about designing craft that are reasonably fast to build and lean in their operation, we thought we should share our expertise and encourage discussion of these options, as they might help save indiviudual operations' economic viability.

Some fishers gave and give us the finger as 'unrealistic'(mild word chosen!) while other would share hours of in-office discussions; one senior fisher spent 5 sessions at 3 hrs each in this office 'to make sure he understood us'.

This led to fishers collecting signatures amongst themselves, while we went after shoreside stakeholders. Then we sat down with Conservation Law Foundation, a potent New England eco-legal advocary-group (clf.org) and eventually received a conceptually potent Letter of Support. Ditto for our Mayor, and more eco-groups.

With that we sat down with our Congressman to find federal R&D money in the pursuit of a new vessel-economic baseline, since it was Federal Code that done tremendous economic damage by dictating short, wide, progressivedly heavier and more power-intensive hull-geometries. We felt compelled as Designers to offer the Congressman this perspective as our homeport of Gloucester, MA was being more and more negatively affected.

Attracted by our reasoning and growing 'notoriety', a non-fishing-related project is on track to be built in Gloucester in wood for a very different federal client. After 'Robin Jean', our design #679 featured in NATIONAL FISHERMAN Nov. '09 - demonstrating our design-philosophy on a larger hull (hull#2) should expand the understanding of vessel-geometric options to adapt to increasing fuel-cost.

Building on this momentum proposed #3 and #4 hulls with inboard-diesel drive-train should match the needs of the inshore-fleet; we are working on securing public green-collar jobs-creating funding for those.

Built in wood-composite and running on seriously less fuel, these much 'greener' hulls should both offer individual operations a very different outlook on 'making it' under $5/gal and sustainability-based catch-limitations, and should affect the discussion of defining regs towards resource-sustainability.

As a fisher, if you have a tool to survive these dramatic changes and be 'greener' than eco-groups have ever thought of, you might have a more optimistic outlook of business-prospects. Your political standing is vastly enhanced vs. 'green foes'. And that is good for the port-community and its budget and it is good for the little boat-yards on which we all depend on working on our wooden boats and storing them.

Good question, Erster.

P.S.: As you'll notice, Messrs. Wright&Ledger don't like/get any of this and you can't help them with that deeply pessimism-driven outlook. So to sooth their disturbed hearts, they'll inhale yet more museum-quality nitrogen for their vision of the 'correct wooden boat mindset'...

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

In short, in sales you do not use the technigue of insults and condescending attitudes to win anyone over. In the area of fuel savings which you are using in an attempt to sell your idea, this always walks hand in hand when fuel prices rise at a disproportionate number to the economic market of other products. The last episode of this found folks wandering into this site promoting sailing craft for the commercial industry. You only have self interest here. You are truely not advocating for the working watermen as I suspected. Stand along side of the watermen when they also fight to work as new fees, quotas, and closures continue to be added each year. Many other designers have ventured into this site only to be slapped down when pushing their products or even eluding to them.

While I do understand the close relationship that your group has had in the past with WB, this is not about saving the working watermen at all. The truely sole proprietorship watermen cannot go out and build anything these days. Complete boatyards catering the these guys are being bulldozed directly because of the NMFS.

There are basic needs and minimums in place for ocean going vessels to work year round. Your pipe dream does not include the minimums in so many ways. We have more than enough evidence to conclude that even the existing standards do not always stand up to the elements now. Just ask any Coast Guard office.

As I stated earlier, your mission does include eliminating the working watermen by default unless you also put your own money where your ideas are and that is to build your dream using some of the "green" funds avaliable, which seems to be the in thing to do these days when work in other areas are slow. You can even have a nice label on the side of the vessel simular to soap detergents too.:D


But seriously, the learning curve for your group could also include some classes in diplomacy. Afterall you have repeately stated that politics goes hand in hand in this venture.:cool:

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

As a side note for anyone interested in advocating for the watermen, this recent event will cause harm to a whole industry. This is what is taking place to the guys in the trenches. These guys don't need no fuel efficent vessels to speak of, but are being put out of business. If you add this to the oversea markets now, the politicans don't give a crap for yet another group of workers.



http://blog.al.com/live/2009/11/prop...ations_br.html

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I'm still not clear why the hull material is of much importance, although if you design in plywood and epoxy you might be interested in seeing that material promoted.

I used to work in a small yard building in aluminum. We built a stock thirty-two footer that was sometimes set up for gill-netting, with a net reel on the stern. Such a craft would not be beyond the abilities of anyone who could build in plywood, if they had some welding skills and a Mig welder. Most of the metal cutting could be done with a skilsaw. The building waste is 100% recyclable, no less-than-green epoxy to use, no wood products and their high waste factor, far faster to build, tougher under actual usage, higher resale value. I could go on, but the point is, if you're trying to promote small, owner-built, fuel efficient boats, then the hull material doesn't matter.

Furthermore, why am I so demonized for making a
a few pertinent arguments, while Erster gets the kid glove treatment for some rather inflamatory posts?

BTW, was the congressman able to come up with the R&D dough? Who was to be the recipient?:rolleyes:

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

So Erster, Wright and Ledger are the same guy ?
None answer questions, are quick to dash off dismissive judgments, and offer no alternatives. Triplets perhaps ?!

All kidding aside - and who does not like a good 'jousting' (?) -
Erster's mind might be put at rest by the fact that our local Coast Guard Commander Chief Warrant Officer Sparkman examined the range of plans and concept-studies and read the same 'language' he is deeply soaked in trying to overwhelm the 47' MLB prototype on the Columbia Bar; 'boat always wins', he says. His understanding - vs. Erster's - moved him to speak at Phil Bolger's Memorial Event in favor of our work on these types of craft in light of their most serious safety-attributes.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

The aluminum construction was offered as an alternative.

A actual discussion of the merits and drawbacks of each method would be enlightening and relevant.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

We all take turns being a guy called Dutch. :D

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I stand corrected.

Ledger responds. Thank you.

Material matters, as it is the pressure of environmental watchdog groups that Erster is so incensed about, just won't wrestled with personally...

- Carefully basing this design-work on wood as the sole renewable material pulls any 'yes-buts' by our 'green' friends immediately off the table. We can always grow more of the stuff domestically, not cut down rainforest, or are forced in perpetuity to burn massive btu's to mine, transport and cook bauxite into a useable aluminum alloy.

- Wood floats, in fir-marine ply with about a 25-30lbs/cubic foot advantage. Taken seriously you can design and build one-off without any smoke&mirrors show a highly 'sinking-resistant' commercial fishing craft; Erster might like that ...? Nah. But CG C.O. Sparkman for sure likes this idea as well once it can be demonstrated. So I proposed to Sparkman to test the hull in port by a.) rolling 90-degrees and b.) pumping it full of water to ascertain intended capabilities. He'll be there, next to the video camera and the men from the bank and from the insurance-agency.

- Wood is unexotic to work with - assuming careful epoxy-habits.

Overall, the concept offers a possibly superior solution to just about any other material and developed design-options.

Therefore discussing all this is indeed a most appropriate subject for this forum, as no 'brand-names' are hawked, no patent-potions tendered, and no investment opportunities dangled - everybody can repeat at leisure....

Assuming this can be pushed into more than these two commercials hulls, there is real potential here to help put WOODENBOAT closer to the limelight of the emerging economic/ecological sustainability debate - which won't hurt anyone as far as I can see.

Raw Erster though will likely feel 'violated' somehow...

P.S. As Ledger points out, these shapes can be done in alu for those willing to give up certain advantages in favor of others. I think though that the politics of true/no-purple-prose sustainability will become standard literacy as a matter of ecological and economic competitivess/survival. We'd certainly look at alu for local reinforcements, specialty gadgets, masts etc. when alu may indeed be superior all around.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

On Erster's excited "kids gloves" note: Being 1900 pro bono hours in the hole, it will be long before we'd break even...

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

LOL! From my own personal perspective and observation, part of my work has been in the area of fixing engineer's work to actually make things work. Sometimes even latent defects are found. Some of those cause bodily harm too.

But in regards to my replies coming late to the topic here, I am only running down the interstate at the same speed now after watching the flow of the traffic from the rest area.:cool::D

In the area of the oyster fisheries closure, which will happen, after combined years of working commercial fisherman along with my other hats over the years, I am indeed skeptical of the Eco warriors in the name of saving just one ant. Afterall we all are headed to the same demise and must have the line on the death certificate filled with a reason.:D:p

The NMFS and the eco warriors all share lunch together. After years of fighting the CCA which in turn works directly with the NMFS, I do come to this discussion with an enlightened perspective for sure. Maybe you can also read up on their mission too on their own site.


I also respect your local Coast Guard fellow for his own personal perspective. But I also know that we have tens of years like decades of proven designs that allows the watermen to return safely. We also know that the evidence is still out on the Global Warming issue too with people that are strong on change too that helps no one. So while I remain open to new and inovative ideas[check my thread in design and plans PB&J]:cool: I also error on the side of some proven minimums for the intended use with being exposed to the change and affect of poor designs and experimental aircraft too.
Now to my own vises now..

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

If I'm reading you right, the argument in favor of plywood/epoxy leans heavily on getting "Green Advocacy" groups "on board the bandwagon", not just on the merits of the material itself. Am I wrong here?

Let me just ask you how much experience the Coast Guard commander has in sealing raw plywood edges? Or you for that matter. Or sanding out epoxy fillets. There are many masters of those art lurking here, Erster's one of them.

For a hard chine aluminum boat under thirty six feet, you don't even need to butt weld panels. you can have a truck drop off those lengths. Two side and two bottom panels can be cut ready to put on the form in a couple of days. The same form that the ply boat would use. No glassing of the outside, no sealing. All down the line the speed adavntages accrue, once it's welded up, it's finished. You don't even need to paint it, except for anti-fouling and some non-skid on the deck

And let's be clear about one thing, a ply/glass workboat is going to need a LOT of epoxy and fabric, so what sounds nice and "green" depends entirely on oil derived plastic. The outside of the hull would need a thick layer of glass to cope with ice. Skim ice is particularly damaging and is frequently encountered in the colder months. Thicker stuff is hardly less damaging. For a fisherman, being able to break ice in order to fish is a primary concern in the Northeast. Alloy boats have less problem with ice and need no special coating.

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

I would like clarification on your comments about the gill netting in your earlier replies along with another post that I find interesting for a designer to bring up.


This comment is even more interesting. Have you also considered that you[PB&J] have also been doing your own preaching from your pulpit with your own reactionary responses?;)

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Amen.
Good point that you made about the craftsmanship necessary to make and maintain a proper wooden boat too.
They ought to figure out a way to turn wood pulp into a rot resistant indestructible self hardening mash so that any fool can use, abuse, fix and build with it.

I am all for green options, if they make sense. But it has to be feasible :cool:

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Careful what you say, Cookie, less you want to be tarred with the same brush as Wright/Ledger/Erster.:D

Re: Duplicate Thread: Dedicated Category in this Forum under Wooden Working Craft ?
 

Hey, leave me alone!

I'm at my drawing board.

I'm tranquilly sitting under a pyramid framework to protect my aura from the nattering nabobs of negativity. I assembled the framework for the pyramid all by myself with no power tools using only the greenest, growing bamboo, from a sustainable fully certified forest.

I'm designing a variety of teepees, yurts, and douglas fir plywood domes for sustainable living in small virtuous communities in our post apocalyptical future. This will be viable vis-a-vis vectors of non pathological objectivism fermented by diverse anomies and the gobbledook of smegma.